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LastLight

ToA Feedback!

124 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

We've had three fights where judges got involved in the discussions. It feels like it'll be good to put up this thread to get some thoughts and put out some clarity on some of the things going on in the tournament. Everyone is free to chime in on whatever about the tournament that they'd like but try to keep your discussions civil. Right now, we have an issue with nerfing the speed at which sound/light travels ( 1000+fps 180,000+fps ). I'm going to put up a precursor for the matter using one of my posts in a discussion that went down in private messages so everyone can get up to speed! This isn't the only thing that would be good to get some feedback on. Anything else is welcome, too!


I was originally going to go down all the posts and quote where necessary but I figure that a general opinion on some of the things I read oughta wrap things up nicely. 

I'm aware that some of the rules appear to contradict themselves. The reason why there are also rules about how quickly attacks can travel in this ruleset despite the existence of this one,

Quote

To begin, preps will be relatively useless if not applied creatively. For example, if you are ten feet away and your opponent can watch as you gather magic into the palm of your hand and lift up to point at him before you fire, it may be very possible for him to simply dodge it. If it's one prep, possibly by just stepping aside. If it's two preps, maybe with the use of one prep, or maybe even a quick draw ( more on quick draws later ), to accentuate movement or maybe even if they can get into cover before you fire, mitigating the damage or something. The reason why it's going to be this way is because we want to avoid instances when people try to win by brute force. A more effective use of two preps to another's none would be to fire at point blank range, or to otherwise fire your magic in an unexpected way.

is because of this 

Quote

Simon:

Hell lets nerf it even further, I mean the attack can move at 30 FPS (which is EVEN SLOWER) than the limit, thats 1 second of real time to dodge. That means in one second he would have to notice, and prepare defense at a speed faster than your limits applies to a character.

If I lowered how quickly things are moving to that extent, this whole tournament would just read weird. I mean, baseball pitchers in the big leagues throw at 100 mph, which is 146 fps, which is something that batters are expected to react to at sixty feet of distance between them. Saying that things are moving at 300 fps, etc, which is about 100 fps above how quickly compound bows fire arrows, it'd give people an idea of how fast things are going back and forth. The rules telling people not to use hard numbers is there because I wanted to lean away from the use of hard physics, same reason why I nerfed how quickly sound and light would travel if used in the tournament. 

I'm familiar with the background both of you ( Cody and Simon ) have. I know what it took to win those random chat encounters on YIM all those years ago. Using tools that can carry effects outward at your opponent as quickly as possible was the best possible choice. Light and sound obviously fits that narrative nicely because, as was stated earlier, 1000+ fps speed and 100,000 fps+ speed. At this point in time, I'm trying to move everything away from all of that. If this was a tournament where people brought in normal human characters with their choice of firearm, I don't want to see the guy who read up on rocket launcher physics to win automatically. I want the guy who used smoke screens, used cover creatively and was otherwise tactically superior to the other person beyond chosen armaments to win. 

If we don't do that, like I've already seen in two judgment calls in this tournament, fights will rapidly and often devolve into physics pissing matches ( Term coined by Cody ). I'm sure everyone in this conference, regardless of where our backgrounds are rooted, can agree that sitting here arguing about how sound waves don't travel well in liquid ( I was taught my whole life that sound is amplified in water ) just isn't productive and if we want to refine T1 as a hobby in our roleplay community, we need to start moving away from that. Otherwise it's going to remain the same way it's been for many years for some of us. We've got a new crowd coming in and it would be good if those of us who have been around a while started moving things away from how they were in yahoo chat. 

The next issue becomes well, how do we win then? If we can't leverage fps? Just tactics, man. Fire off a projectile while a character is in the air and he can't move ( hopefully he doesn't use telekinetic stepping stones ) or infuse the ground you're standing in with electricity as your opponent charges you and you step back. Use creativity and tactics. Next time you fire a really fast attack, don't say how fast it travels. State at about what moment in time during the fight it will connect. Like, the projectile was quick enough to strike the left bicep as he was drawing the sword, whatever. 

Another really important thing to say is that if we were to succeed in creating the sort of environment on Valucre that isn't so inclined to implement hard numbers and physics ( not saying physics should go out the window. like I said, they should be replaced with relative physics, not completely and utterly erased ) there would be zero need for me to nerf sound and light. It'd be great if I didn't need to do that, truly. But right now, with the culture the way it is, it wouldn't be long before someone shows up firing lasers in every direction listing how quickly those lasers are traveling ( 100,000+fps! ). Maybe one day, when we're done making this the predominant attitude towards T1 in our roleplay community, I wont ever need to tell someone that the tournament is nerfing real world physics to create a certain kind of competitive environment. 

I see all of this like progress. I've already made a note to add rules into the tournament that are more clear about this. 

Also, I noticed that something was brought up about how I'm the only one who knows the rules! Cut us some slack. Simon says he spent days perusing the rules and there was still some confusion. Rules can be difficult to wrangle, but I'm confident enough about both of the other judges to have brought them here. It was always pretty clear to me, from the very beginning, that they wouldn't have my exact interpretation of the rules in hand when we started because it's just really hard to discuss everything. It was always the plan for them to learn my interpretation through practice, which is what we're doing here. I'm also confident that if they disagree with an interpretation of mine, they'll bring it up, and it'll get discussed. 

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Simon Said: I look forward to it. Hope into discord, we can use voice its much easier.

I wish. Can you imagine me trying to lay all of this shit out via voice? Probably bite my tongue off and with the in between returns, I don't imagine I could get all of this out in less than an hour. 

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Simon Said: Also, the attack is not fatal. Its onyl designed to rupture the eardrum, which is not deadly it would just cause nausea and vomiting Which would hamper his ability to fight, meaning he would be logically unable to continue. The point of the attack was to make him unable to fight on even ground and for a ToA IC judge to rule TKO based on concussion symptoms.

I think this is actually the biggest misinterpretation of all, not that it's any fault of your own. I tried to imply the kind of fights I wanted and I guess I wasn't clear. Like it was discussed earlier, we don't want insta-wins. I want victories to happen after the characters have been sufficiently roughed up. Like maybe after Maeryn has dragged Van around the battlefield, smearing his face along the boardwalk all along, maybe a punch to the jaw might finally knock him out. Not saying your eardrum attack is unwanted. I just want it mellowed out. Instead of bursting his eardrums and making him vomit, just cause pain. Pain that'll make it harder for him to focus on the fight while you fire a magic missile at his face next turn, know what I mean? 

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Simon Said: The nerfing of sound, hampers my bards main casting discipline so much that he is near unusable. This is also a concern.

Nah, you don't need your attack to travel at 1116.4 fps. You could also use sound like a concussive force! Roll Van over like a steamroller. But elaborate on this further, maybe I can shed more light. 

Quote

Simon Said: Also, you can see him playing his harp for two turns so, I dont see the issue with visibility. 

The attack itself needs to be visible. Reason why that's the case is so that fighters are forced to get their attacks to connect by being creative somehow. Either fire them at your opponent while he isn't looking that way, or something. 

Quote

CATZ said: Note that if you and your opponent want to do a "real physics" match and throw the actual rules out the window, I'm actually totally fine with that (the other two judges may not be however). With the stipulation being that if you have to make any judge calls as opposed to working things out between each other who won, then I'd just flip a coin and be done with it >.>

Back when I participated as a judge in Chosen tournaments, this is a similar attitude we had. We would allow certain little things to get past and be okay as long as both fighters were good with it. It was a clean idea back then because why should we get in the way of how people want to fight? I feel it didn't turn out too well in some cases, however. It cultivates some indifference towards the rule set in place that I want to avoid and like I said before, I really do want to start moving T1 away from the things that give it a bad wrap, ie physics arguments and ego. ( Not saying the Chosen was full of ego and physics arguments, but its rule set allowed things to go that route. I want to cut that off ). To do that, I think everyone involved following the rule set is necessary. 

Quote

CATZ Said: Because the point of placing a velocity limit in the first place is to discourage this from happening. Granted, I agree that as soon as you place that hard number on it, it's inevitable that people were going to do it anyways, but meh. That would be something to raise as a criticism in a feedback thread (which I wish Lastlight would make already, or give me permission to make).

Shit! Sorry! Give me a bit. I mean, I'm willing to have these conversations here in a more contained environment, at least for now. I wouldn't be above posting these discussions in a feedback thread for perusal by the audience, however. We'll see. I don't mean to put it off or anything, I'm just being cautious, I guess. Idk. Not even cautious, just patient. 

Oh yeah, I forgot. It was a lengthy response. Another concern that will likely come up is why the rules about damage are there if we can't use them to their utmost? Well, there are similar counter rules in place for those about how these attacks shouldn't be used in their most lethal forms to avoid killing the opponent. This is the same counter balance principle I was applying to speed and relative physics interpretation. 

I want people to view the matches like walls are buckling, windows are shattering and cars are being dented without the hyper lethality that comes with it. Ripping people in half one post in also perpetuates the kind of hyper competitiveness that has made T1 look like little less than a dick measuring contest to those watching on. Like I said before, we need to take measures to refine this hobby of ours that we enjoy so much. 

 

Edited by LastLight

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Hmm.

This is partly why I entered with the character I did.  Rather than being physics-based, his powers rely on impressions and symbolism, with the effect mattering more than the cause.  Essentially this means I don't get to game any 'hard' values or effects to make cheap shots, but it also means I'm not so restricted by realism.  Zeke's fire ghost, for instance, can burn through things that fire usually wouldn't burn, because her flames are just an aesthetic manifestation of the core purpose of her abilities, e.g. destruction.

Point being that if you want a fight to be based on tactics rather than knowledge, you want to focus on the effects of abilities and hand-wave the causes with magic and other such woo-woo.  Mind, I don't have a problem with outcomes being affected by knowledge of physics and the like, but if you want it to be less of a factor then the clear answer is less hard physics.

The other thing I'd recommend is just to give everyone a flat increase in durability.  Some people can still be tougher than others if they're built for it, but even the squishier characters would be able to tank a little more than your average human would.  Essentially, this gives people more room to use powerful effects and blow stuff up without instakilling each other.  It also means that 'hard' effects like light and sound (blinding flashes and deafening noises), would be reduced in power: they could still affect the senses, but all fighters would be able to endure, say, a flashbang without getting immediately knocked out.  If people wanted to make their sound or light more powerful via magic then fine, but they'd have to attach it to some regular magic effect that obeys projectile speed limits.  Jacking magical effects onto light or sound would be disallowed, since that's just a way of sneaking past the speed rules.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, bigfatcat said:

Hmm.

This is partly why I entered with the character I did.  Rather than being physics-based, his powers rely on impressions and symbolism, with the effect mattering more than the cause.  Essentially this means I don't get to game any 'hard' values or effects to make cheap shots, but it also means I'm not so restricted by realism.  Zeke's fire ghost, for instance, can burn through things that fire usually wouldn't burn, because her flames are just an aesthetic manifestation of the core purpose of her abilities, e.g. destruction.

Point being that if you want a fight to be based on tactics rather than knowledge, you want to focus on the effects of abilities and hand-wave the causes with magic and other such woo-woo.  Mind, I don't have a problem with outcomes being affected by knowledge of physics and the like, but if you want it to be less of a factor then the clear answer is less hard physics.

The other thing I'd recommend is just to give everyone a flat increase in durability.  Some people can still be tougher than others if they're built for it, but even the squishier characters would be able to tank a little more than your average human would.  Essentially, this gives people more room to use powerful effects and blow stuff up without instakilling each other.  It also means that 'hard' effects like light and sound (blinding flashes and deafening noises), would be reduced in power: they could still affect the senses, but all fighters would be able to endure, say, a flashbang without getting immediately knocked out.  If people wanted to make their sound or light more powerful via magic then fine, but they'd have to attach it to some regular magic effect that obeys projectile speed limits.  Jacking magical effects onto light or sound would be disallowed, since that's just a way of sneaking past the speed rules.

The issue stemmed at hand is not about the projectile speed limit. The issue is there is no rule reguarding the enchanting of sound waves. Essentially if you "turn the volume up" on something, the sound still obeys he laws of physics. This is not covered in the ruleset, what is covered is projectile movement and prepped attacks following a pattern. Waves of sound do not follow these rules, as the waves at a slower they do not have the same effect. 

So if you slow the wave speed, you can't get the desired effect. 

 

With this in mind, I am in favor of stipulations to the rules that clearly state use of physics is disallowed, because it is.

but I do agree, I did lawyer the rules, because here is no listed rule for placing guitar amp on a sound wave. Also sorry but, sound waves aren't visible, I mean I can make hem sparkly? Even with the flavor you run into the "anime physics" barrier. If it wasn't me, it would have been someone else who uses the same style of "science like" t1

Edited by Bardic Knowledge

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9 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:

The issue stemmed at hand is not about the projectile speed limit. The issue is there is no rule reguarding the enchanting of sound waves.

When you dial up the volume on the TV set, it's not the same sound waves that have already reached your ears that are suddenly louder. It's the new ones being generated from the source that are louder. Taking your last post of your fight as an example, when Maeryn was playing the harp at first and it wasn't an attack, the sound waves would not be visible and they were not loud enough to hurt, but as soon as the sound waves being generated enter the realm of an attack, they become visible to the naked eye and are subject to the attack speeds outlined in the prep section of the rules. To me, that seems pretty clear. In my fight, if I'm about to use a light based attack and I know in my head that light travels at 180.000+fps, it will occur to me that this is beyond the stated limit in the rules and will inquire on it. I mentioned earlier that hey, if you just don't get that from the rules, I don't mind adding some further detail. Keep in mind, if I want to make a rule set that covers how everything physics related behaves in this rule set, it'd be enormous. Hence this disclaimer: 

Quote

The purpose of these rules is to be versatile. Many questions will not be specifically answered here but the nature of your questions will ideally be covered. For example, if you aren’t sure if your fireball can have a twenty foot explosive area on impact, it’s up to you to deduce that the circumference description in the T1 terms and limits section of this rule set should be what governs over your query.

Aside from that, I don't agree that nerfing the speed of sound and light equates to physics being null in this tournament, so I'm not willing to add in a rule that states physics are to be ignored. 

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Posted (edited)

That's literally explained in the post bro. Your argument would be valid if I was not already following that logic. It's not in the rules bro. Fix he rules, he'll put a Simon clause in there, but as they stand right now you are pulling it out of your ass. As it is written it is not defined or worded properly. You need to put a clause in the rules tht states "attack speed limits on physics is in play" there is no rule against enchanting a sound wave in the current ruleset.

Edited by Bardic Knowledge

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3 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:

 

Also, didn't I literally state biologically on the PM what happens when eardrums rupture? I don't like snips being left out to lean the argument. I'm sorry turning on my guitar amp isn't creative enough for you. Don't Doctor posts.

 

I'm not doctoring posts bro. I also said this in the PM. 

Quote

This discussion would be nicely continued in the feedback thread though! Other people chiming in on everything could help round things up. You could copy/paste some of your grievances in there from this message so people can see the counter points and all of that, etc. 

You're free to provide anything that is necessary for your point of view! 

 

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I don't need anything necessary for my point of view. I told you your rules do not clearly cover this situation, and an addendum to the rules needs to be made to make it clear that physics is subject to the FPS laws. Right now, there is not one.

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For perusal, here's your post! 


There they were, his eyes, and they found him. Maeryn smiled calculating. He applied his quick draw magic. The clarity from his current enhanced state would come into play. The planks beneath him were noted, but of no consequence, as his dancing feed became the point of quick casting. The pound of his feet and movements of his hips were actually in frequency and from the contact with the spreading dust about his feet they became a buffer, launching downward into the earth a constant changing wave. This would make it where communicating with the earth in his expanding sphere of just near impossible. As the being would attempt to make contact with his magic near Maeryn’s circle of dust, he would get a ‘’feedback’’ of “static.”  The cast of the spell from himself to the dust and into the earth this spell would hamper any earth magic right on top of below or near his 3ft circle of dust (which expanded slightly due to the changing elasticity of the planks)

 

Simultaneously through dual discipline magic he applied magic to the strings of his harp and into the sound itself. He channeled it, to be specific, the knowledge he gained before and now by bardic observation gave him the calculations and pitch he needed, and the magic working in tandem with his harp would strike outward viciously. It attached itself to the being’s frequency. Specifically, that of a tympanic membrane. Much like applying sound to a wine glass to shatter, the same discipline can be applied to anything. What made this hard on large bodies filled with liquid, is the frequency of the sound could be dampened. Since there is no fluid in or around the membrane of the ear drum, this made bursting it easier. Acoustic Trauma. This was designed in such a way to damage JUST the tympanic membrane, as, after all it was a non-lethal tournament there was no need to kill the man before him to prove a point.  All he needed to do was make it impossible for the party he was fighting to fight back.

 

The being may be able to perceive time differently due to his ocular and mental ability, however, slowing it in his mind did nothing to hamper real time. As spells stretched out at sonic speeds one could not possibly adjust, move, coordinate, and cast in nanoseconds as the mind may work that fast, but the mechanics of a body do not.

 

 

  Hide contents

Self Buff, Celestial Heroism 50% increase to Speed, Strength, and Casting Agility (1 turn)

 

 Celestial Dust, Transmuted ½ Prep used to create Dispel magic

 

Quick Draw muffle

 

 Bardic Knowledge

 

Preps gained: 0, Channeling effects of harp music in play.

 

Previous Preps: 1

 

Usable Preps this turn: 1 (Spent)

 

Usable Preps Next Turn: 0, Channeling Song +1

 

Advantages: Speed, strength,clarity buff 2 turns; Self Buff Celestial Heroism 1 turn.

 

Most probable action next turn: Channel, Banshee’s song.

 

Dispel magic explanation: The foot channels magic to the dust, which channels downwards at ½ prep speed (100 fps) this spell is in place like a radio jammer that changes frequency making it near impossible to reach out to the earth in his sphere of influence (downward 3ft.)

 

Banshee’s Song Explanation: ½ prep used to create a magical amplifier, this causes the sound waves from his already playing harp to become loud enough to cause acoustic trauma to the tympanic membrane of the ear. A double rupture (the point of the attack) would render the fighter unable to continue, for reasons I would hope people understand so I don’t have to go into the biological aspect to rupturing two eardrums at once.

 

The speed of sound at sea level is 1116.44 (Rounded) feet per second. Sound traveling through the magical amp created by Maeryn (1/2 prep 100fps from fingertip to string) would have the same property as regular sound, just at a much louder frequency. Since there is no rule on this, the normal rule of PHYSICS must apply to said sound.  The sound applied by the harp does not affect the caster due to the muffle quick draw.

 

Given the speed of sound is 1116.44 FPS, and even calculating for a drop off of half or even quarter of that speed gives the peace keeper little time to dodge at the 30 ft distance.

 

The way the sound is designed is for an instant burst, not an effect over time. The effect over time channel, is used to increase the frequency for the next attack.

 

Note, that the effects of Dispel magic, and Banshee’s song are simultaneous meaning they happen at the same time, the QD muffle takes place just before both are applied.


I hope this gets you to understand I'm not interested in doctoring any posts. You had a back and forth with Robbie Rotten earlier. The post clearly reads to me like it was supposed to be an insta win, but you said you failed to properly describe the intent, right?

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3 minutes ago, LastLight said:

For perusal, here's your post! 

 


There they were, his eyes, and they found him. Maeryn smiled calculating. He applied his quick draw magic. The clarity from his current enhanced state would come into play. The planks beneath him were noted, but of no consequence, as his dancing feed became the point of quick casting. The pound of his feet and movements of his hips were actually in frequency and from the contact with the spreading dust about his feet they became a buffer, launching downward into the earth a constant changing wave. This would make it where communicating with the earth in his expanding sphere of just near impossible. As the being would attempt to make contact with his magic near Maeryn’s circle of dust, he would get a ‘’feedback’’ of “static.”  The cast of the spell from himself to the dust and into the earth this spell would hamper any earth magic right on top of below or near his 3ft circle of dust (which expanded slightly due to the changing elasticity of the planks)

 

Simultaneously through dual discipline magic he applied magic to the strings of his harp and into the sound itself. He channeled it, to be specific, the knowledge he gained before and now by bardic observation gave him the calculations and pitch he needed, and the magic working in tandem with his harp would strike outward viciously. It attached itself to the being’s frequency. Specifically, that of a tympanic membrane. Much like applying sound to a wine glass to shatter, the same discipline can be applied to anything. What made this hard on large bodies filled with liquid, is the frequency of the sound could be dampened. Since there is no fluid in or around the membrane of the ear drum, this made bursting it easier. Acoustic Trauma. This was designed in such a way to damage JUST the tympanic membrane, as, after all it was a non-lethal tournament there was no need to kill the man before him to prove a point.  All he needed to do was make it impossible for the party he was fighting to fight back.

 

The being may be able to perceive time differently due to his ocular and mental ability, however, slowing it in his mind did nothing to hamper real time. As spells stretched out at sonic speeds one could not possibly adjust, move, coordinate, and cast in nanoseconds as the mind may work that fast, but the mechanics of a body do not.

 

 

  Hide contents

Self Buff, Celestial Heroism 50% increase to Speed, Strength, and Casting Agility (1 turn)

 

 Celestial Dust, Transmuted ½ Prep used to create Dispel magic

 

Quick Draw muffle

 

 Bardic Knowledge

 

Preps gained: 0, Channeling effects of harp music in play.

 

Previous Preps: 1

 

Usable Preps this turn: 1 (Spent)

 

Usable Preps Next Turn: 0, Channeling Song +1

 

Advantages: Speed, strength,clarity buff 2 turns; Self Buff Celestial Heroism 1 turn.

 

Most probable action next turn: Channel, Banshee’s song.

 

Dispel magic explanation: The foot channels magic to the dust, which channels downwards at ½ prep speed (100 fps) this spell is in place like a radio jammer that changes frequency making it near impossible to reach out to the earth in his sphere of influence (downward 3ft.)

 

Banshee’s Song Explanation: ½ prep used to create a magical amplifier, this causes the sound waves from his already playing harp to become loud enough to cause acoustic trauma to the tympanic membrane of the ear. A double rupture (the point of the attack) would render the fighter unable to continue, for reasons I would hope people understand so I don’t have to go into the biological aspect to rupturing two eardrums at once.

 

The speed of sound at sea level is 1116.44 (Rounded) feet per second. Sound traveling through the magical amp created by Maeryn (1/2 prep 100fps from fingertip to string) would have the same property as regular sound, just at a much louder frequency. Since there is no rule on this, the normal rule of PHYSICS must apply to said sound.  The sound applied by the harp does not affect the caster due to the muffle quick draw.

 

Given the speed of sound is 1116.44 FPS, and even calculating for a drop off of half or even quarter of that speed gives the peace keeper little time to dodge at the 30 ft distance.

 

The way the sound is designed is for an instant burst, not an effect over time. The effect over time channel, is used to increase the frequency for the next attack.

 

Note, that the effects of Dispel magic, and Banshee’s song are simultaneous meaning they happen at the same time, the QD muffle takes place just before both are applied.

 


I hope this gets you to understand I'm not interested in doctoring any posts. You had a back and forth with Robbie Rotten earlier. The post clearly reads to me like it was supposed to be an insta win, but you said you failed to properly describe the intent, right?

I thought I did with perforation of the eardrum. I am pretty sure people know what happens when you pop your eardrum, and if it is not clear, I am sorry for that.

Secondly, about your argument. The attack is moving by guide lined speeds, the effect, ''enchanted sound waves'' are not. 

"Maeryn (1/2 prep 100fps from fingertip to string)" this follows your guidelines, as the attack is coming from his fingers, to the strings of the harp, which then cause the volume to turn up. This is clear in the spoiler tag.

So is the effect 

"I would hope people understand so I don’t have to go into the biological aspect to rupturing two eardrums at once." You can WEBMD this, it does not kill you, it literally causes discharge from the ears, nausea, vomiting, and intense pain.

"Since there is no rule on this, the normal rule of PHYSICS must apply to said sound. "

Again, there is no rule regulating the enchanting of items given a natural speed by the laws of physics. 

As for the invisibility clause.  Van can see energy. You can see him applying the energy to the harp, and you can see him playing the harp. This doubles over as Van can see sound waves through his cybernetic eye. Invisibility is irrelevant in this fight as the combatant can see the energy with his naked eyes. (Invisibility is a matter of perception that varies from character to character)

As stated before by the person I was fighting, the validity of the attack was never in question by him at all, the conversation was to get a grasp of the rules which I layered around. (Again, if it wasn't be it would have been someone else who fights like me.)

 

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Right now, we have an issue with nerfing the speed at which sound/light travels ( 1000+fps 180,000+fps ).

I don't really see it as an issue. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that these things would be somehow excepted to a velocity limitation. To me, this is the same as if someone brought in an M1911, then complained that we weren't allowing them to fire bullets at 700 MPH or whatever because in Real Life, that's how fast bullets from an M1911 go. Or a high tension ballista capable of firing bolts at speeds above 300 fps, or so forth or so on. I see no reason to treat those objections any differently from this one. If you agree to fight under this rule in the first place, you implicitly agreed that how things should play out in Real Life will be arbitrarily set aside in these instances.

1 hour ago, bigfatcat said:

Hmm.

This is partly why I entered with the character I did.  Rather than being physics-based, his powers rely on impressions and symbolism, with the effect mattering more than the cause.  Essentially this means I don't get to game any 'hard' values or effects to make cheap shots, but it also means I'm not so restricted by realism.  Zeke's fire ghost, for instance, can burn through things that fire usually wouldn't burn, because her flames are just an aesthetic manifestation of the core purpose of her abilities, e.g. destruction.

Point being that if you want a fight to be based on tactics rather than knowledge, you want to focus on the effects of abilities and hand-wave the causes with magic and other such woo-woo.  Mind, I don't have a problem with outcomes being affected by knowledge of physics and the like, but if you want it to be less of a factor then the clear answer is less hard physics.

The other thing I'd recommend is just to give everyone a flat increase in durability.  Some people can still be tougher than others if they're built for it, but even the squishier characters would be able to tank a little more than your average human would.  Essentially, this gives people more room to use powerful effects and blow stuff up without instakilling each other.  It also means that 'hard' effects like light and sound (blinding flashes and deafening noises), would be reduced in power: they could still affect the senses, but all fighters would be able to endure, say, a flashbang without getting immediately knocked out.  If people wanted to make their sound or light more powerful via magic then fine, but they'd have to attach it to some regular magic effect that obeys projectile speed limits.  Jacking magical effects onto light or sound would be disallowed, since that's just a way of sneaking past the speed rules.

This is pretty much spot-on with Lastlight's interpretations. Me, I don't want to tell people they can't cite physics, but the standard that I would use would be what I imagine is immediately apparent to 95% of people; assume everything works according to real world physics where applicable, except where the rules directly contradict them. To quote myself because I don't see the need to type it out twice:

Well, if you have a rule stating that one thing should happen, and real-world physics suggests that something else should happen--say, the rules say that an attack cannot travel more than 300 FPS, but in Real Life, your laser attack would travel at 186,000 miles per second--what is the most reasonable interpretation? There is no rule stating that real-world physics is absolute, but there is a rule stating a velocity limit. Having the laser attack travel at 186,000 MPS clearly violates the rules. Having it travel at 300 FPS does not.

Now, when there is no rule that is clearly stating what should happen, then yes, the reasonable assumption is that things operate according to real-world physics, to the extent that they can be applied (for instance, you will have a hard time applying the laws of physics to something like a telepathic mental attack). This would be the case in the car situation, as there's no rule clearly stating that all cars can be easily flipped on level ground, or some such like that, but there are fairly good real world references for the viability of such a thing.

I thought this was obvious enough that it didn't need its own rule to specifically lay it out, but again, meh; that's something you should raise in as feedback for the rule set overall, if you truly feel that this is a non-obvious conclusion to reach. Personally, I don't agree that it is.

This seems to me to be the most reasonable approach to the "physics question." I am open to a better one if someone thinks they have one. Personally, I'm not convinced that there is any real problem that needs to be solved here. The line of logic used to arrive at the conclusion in the italics text is very simple and the vast majority of posters seem to be capable of understanding it intuitively.

I also agree with the general sentiment that the end effect is what I'm going to be concerned with more so than how you got there. One issue that came up in this specific instance was the fact that the attack being used, a sound attack powerful enough to rupture the opponent's eardrums, was meant to be an insta win effect. It was something explicitly described as making the target "unable to continue." There were various attempts to circumvent this being an insta win effect by saying that it was "technically a debuff" or what have you. For me, I don't care at all about attempts to justify or loophole the issue, I'm going to call a spade a spade. Something that takes somebody from "untouched" to "unable to continue" is an insta win effect, full stop. It doesn't matter to me whether it's sound waves, or a laser beam, or a mind blast, or whatever other form it might take. I think any reasonable person would agree to this definition of "insta win" (a term I use instead of "insta kill" because the tournament is non-lethal, but "insta KO," "one hit KO," and such would also apply). If someone thinks they have a better one, I'm all ears.

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  • 1 minute ago, Robbie Rotten said:

    I don't really see it as an issue. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that these things would be somehow excepted to a velocity limitation. To me, this is the same as if someone brought in an M1911, then complained that we weren't allowing them to fire bullets at 700 MPH or whatever because in Real Life, that's how fast bullets from an M1911 go. Or a high tension ballista capable of firing bolts at speeds above 300 fps, or so forth or so on. I see no reason to treat those objections any differently from this one. If you agree to fight under this rule in the first place, you implicitly agreed that how things should play out in Real Life will be arbitrarily set aside in these instances.

    This is pretty much spot-on with Lastlight's interpretations. Me, I don't want to tell people they can't cite physics, but the standard that I would use would be what I imagine is immediately apparent to 95% of people; assume everything works according to real world physics where applicable, except where the rules directly contradict them. To quote myself because I don't see the need to type it out twice:

    Well, if you have a rule stating that one thing should happen, and real-world physics suggests that something else should happen--say, the rules say that an attack cannot travel more than 300 FPS, but in Real Life, your laser attack would travel at 186,000 miles per second--what is the most reasonable interpretation? There is no rule stating that real-world physics is absolute, but there is a rule stating a velocity limit. Having the laser attack travel at 186,000 MPS clearly violates the rules. Having it travel at 300 FPS does not.

    Now, when there is no rule that is clearly stating what should happen, then yes, the reasonable assumption is that things operate according to real-world physics, to the extent that they can be applied (for instance, you will have a hard time applying the laws of physics to something like a telepathic mental attack). This would be the case in the car situation, as there's no rule clearly stating that all cars can be easily flipped on level ground, or some such like that, but there are fairly good real world references for the viability of such a thing.

    I thought this was obvious enough that it didn't need its own rule to specifically lay it out, but again, meh; that's something you should raise in as feedback for the rule set overall, if you truly feel that this is a non-obvious conclusion to reach. Personally, I don't agree that it is.

    This seems to me to be the most reasonable approach to the "physics question." I am open to a better one if someone thinks they have one. Personally, I'm not convinced that there is any real problem that needs to be solved here. The line of logic used to arrive at the conclusion in the italics text is very simple and the vast majority of posters seem to be capable of understanding it intuitively.

    I also agree with the general sentiment that the end effect is what I'm going to be concerned with more so than how you got there. One issue that came up in this specific instance was the fact that the attack being used, a sound attack powerful enough to rupture the opponent's eardrums, was meant to be an insta win effect. It was something explicitly described as making the target "unable to continue." There were various attempts to circumvent this being an insta win effect by saying that it was "technically a debuff" or what have you. For me, I don't care at all about attempts to justify or loophole the issue, I'm going to call a spade a spade. Something that takes somebody from "untouched" to "unable to continue" is an insta win effect, full stop. It doesn't matter to me whether it's sound waves, or a laser beam, or a mind blast, or whatever other form it might take. I think any reasonable person would agree to this definition of "insta win" (a term I use instead of "insta kill" because the tournament is non-lethal, but "insta KO," "one hit KO," and such would also apply). If someone thinks they have a better one, I'm all ears.

    You guys do understand that photons are mostly harmless right? When you add energy to light, the speed slows. Just in case you might not be aware of how that works.

  • I would also like to point out, I am not arguing over validity, I am arguing for a clearer stipulation be added to the rule set. Something that says "All physics when made into an attack, are subjected to the FPS rules of prepped attacks" I don't know what its a big deal, this makes it clear that attacks based on physics must be nerfed to meet the FPS requirement. 

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2 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:
  • You guys do understand that photons are mostly harmless right? When you add energy to light, the speed slows. Just in case you might not be aware of how that works.

  • I would also like to point out, I am not arguing over validity, I am arguing for a clearer stipulation be added to the rule set. Something that says "All physics when made into an attack, are subjected to the FPS rules of prepped attacks" I don't know what its a big deal, this makes it clear that attacks based on physics must be nerfed to meet the FPS requirement. 

Every attack is based on physics. If I shoot a gun at you, that's based on the physics of a certain amount of force being applied to a small chunk of metal in such a way so as to propel it into your character at a certain speed, for instance. So this would be the equivalent of a rule stating "all attacks are subject to the FPS rules." Which is the same as the rule that already exists. It would read like:

--Attacks cannot travel at a rate faster than 300 feet per second
--All attacks are subject to this limitation

The second rule there is harmless, sure, but it's also redundant. For me, I don't want to set a precedent that every time someone doesn't like something about the rules, they are able to get a new one shoved in there just to satisfy their personal sensibilities. I'm not convinced that there is any legitimate justification to add your proposed rule beyond that. Lastlight may feel differently though.

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I feel that the rules regarding speed as they are currently written, do not encompass physics, and I would like for it to be more clearly stated to prevent misunderstanding. Thats all I am asking.

 

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Posted (edited)

 

" Speed wise, a character can not turn tail and outrun a once prepped attack. Consider a one prep attack to travel at 300 feet per second. Characters in this tournament might have heightened reflexes and speed so they may be able to react to an attack like that, but it's at a disadvantage, so don't expect to move as quickly as it, or faster, without supplemental magic in place. Twice prepped attacks move at 350 fps, and are the stuff that that can end a match before your character even sees the attack coming if he or she wasn't being mindful. The point of describing the speeds that can be obtained here isn’t so that you can leverage distance and speed against your opponent using the feet per second description. I don’t want to see people saying, “We were two feet away and my attack traveled at 300 fps, you’re dead.” Be more relative about it, and seeing attacks coming is important. "

 

That is the speed snippet from the rules, as they stand now. 

Proposed change:

"Speed wise, a character can not turn tail and outrun a once prepped attack. Consider a one prepped attack travels at 300 feet per second. Characters in this tournament might have heightened reflexes and speed so they may be able to react to an attack like that, but it's at a disadvantage, so don't expect to move as quickly as it, or faster, without supplemental magic in place. Twice prepped attacks move at 350 fps, and are the stuff that that can end a match before your character even sees the attack coming if he or she wasn't being mindful. The point of describing the speeds that can be obtained here isn’t so that you can leverage distance and speed against your opponent using the feet per second description. I don’t want to see people saying, “We were two feet away and my attack traveled at 300 fps, you’re dead.” Be more relative about it, and seeing attacks coming is important. All attacks and effects are subject to these rules.

 

 

Edited by Bardic Knowledge

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I don't object to those changes. I actually like removing the language suggesting that 2 prep attacks can be expected to end matches instantly, since one of the objectives of the rule set as stated by Lastlight is actually to discourage insta wins.

2 hours ago, bigfatcat said:

The other thing I'd recommend is just to give everyone a flat increase in durability.  Some people can still be tougher than others if they're built for it, but even the squishier characters would be able to tank a little more than your average human would.  Essentially, this gives people more room to use powerful effects and blow stuff up without instakilling each other.  It also means that 'hard' effects like light and sound (blinding flashes and deafening noises), would be reduced in power: they could still affect the senses, but all fighters would be able to endure, say, a flashbang without getting immediately knocked out.  If people wanted to make their sound or light more powerful via magic then fine, but they'd have to attach it to some regular magic effect that obeys projectile speed limits.  Jacking magical effects onto light or sound would be disallowed, since that's just a way of sneaking past the speed rules.

Also, I think this is a good idea. If as Lastlight states, we want the environment to be getting destroyed, like cars exploding and shit, but no one to actually die, this seems like a pretty good move towards that objective.

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