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      Vote for Valucre [February]   02/02/2017

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LastLight

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124 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Robbie Rotten said:

I don't object to those changes. I actually like removing the language suggesting that 2 prep attacks can be expected to end matches instantly, since one of the objectives of the rule set as stated by Lastlight is actually to discourage insta wins.

Also, I think this is a good idea. If as Lastlight states, we want the environment to be getting destroyed, like cars exploding and shit, but no one to actually die, this seems like a pretty good move towards that objective.

Sometimes I like you, sometimes I don't know how I feel about it. 

This also comes to mind:  Another thing that comes to mind, is twice prepped martial abilities. Does this mean the person can defy gravity or physics based on the speed calculations given. Can they break the ''character speed limit'' threshold. This is also not clear, as twice prepped abilities have a ''set speed''. So if someone martial preps a jump attack, can they force their bodies to move at 300fps during this attack?

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10 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:

I feel that the rules regarding speed as they are currently written, do not encompass physics, and I would like for it to be more clearly stated to prevent misunderstanding. Thats all I am asking.

I agree with Robbie that it's already clear but I don't mind editing it in because the change will be super simple. It'll probably just be "ie, this applies to someone using sound or light, both of which would feasibly travel beyond the 300-350 fps limit, as an attack medium." 

For further clarity, you brought up some other things in our PMs that we're bringing up here. For example, I said this, 

54 minutes ago, LastLight said:

Aside from that, I don't agree that nerfing the speed of sound and light equates to physics being null in this tournament, so I'm not willing to add in a rule that states physics are to be ignored. 

because of 

Quote

Simon said:  My bard isn't equipped for knock out drag out fights, and it's in his personality to attempt to fight/end fighting with males as quickly as possible, this being said you need to put a disclaimer in the rules that let's people know physics do not apply in this tournament. You have given me what you want to see not what is allowed and explainable by rule of definition. 

Also, something else to take into account is the whole invisibility thing that you mentioned earlier in this thread. 

37 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:

As for the invisibility clause.  Van can see energy. You can see him applying the energy to the harp, and you can see him playing the harp. This doubles over as Van can see sound waves through his cybernetic eye. Invisibility is irrelevant in this fight as the combatant can see the energy with his naked eyes. (Invisibility is a matter of perception that varies from character to character)

It's clearly stated in the rules that attacks can't be invisible to the naked eye. 

38 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:

As stated before by the person I was fighting, the validity of the attack was never in question by him at all, the conversation was to get a grasp of the rules which I layered around. (Again, if it wasn't be it would have been someone else who fights like me.)

Yeah, I know what Cody brought up. Cody approached us about what his response to you was going to be, which was apparently to argue, based on physics, that MAeryn's own attack would blow him up. The rule that came to mind when he said that was this rule:

Quote

For the sake of simplicity, all spells and abilities are considered to compensate for certain trivial discrepancies. If your character uses a super strength spell and punches a column wall down, he won’t shatter his hand and arm. It is always a little fun to see players put some flavor in, however. If you choose to have your character experience some discomfort from certain abilities, it just makes the read that much more interesting. Do not push this mechanic in any overt way. Claiming immunity from all damage while using a strength spell to break down a wall will not work for you.

So after pointing that out, and after reading your post, I told Cody that his reaction from your post would be better handled another way. In this tournament, I've already gotten the idea that people don't like having hard physics leveraged on them, and that makes sense. Let's try and have some fun. We can use relative physics ( Term coined by Robbie Rotten. Really appreciate how useful it is ) and still be competitive. So after I noticed your post was violating the rules anyway and, of no fault of your own, making someone consider turning the fight into a physics textbook fight, I pointed out the relevant rules to see if we could move this out of that direction. We're not blowing things out of proportion, just squaring things up! 

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1 minute ago, LastLight said:

I agree with Robbie that it's already clear but I don't mind editing it in because the change will be super simple. It'll probably just be "ie, this applies to someone using sound or light, both of which would feasibly travel beyond the 300-350 fps limit, as an attack medium." 

For further clarity, you brought up some other things in our PMs that we're bringing up here. For example, I said this, 

because of 

Also, something else to take into account is the whole invisibility thing that you mentioned earlier in this thread. 

It's clearly stated in the rules that attacks can't be invisible to the naked eye. 

Yeah, I know what Cody brought up. Cody approached us about what his response to you was going to be, which was apparently to argue, based on physics, that MAeryn's own attack would blow him up. The rule that came to mind when he said that was this rule:

So after pointing that out, and after reading your post, I told Cody that his reaction from your post would be better handled another way. In this tournament, I've already gotten the idea that people don't like having hard physics leveraged on them, and that makes sense. Let's try and have some fun. We can use relative physics ( Term coined by Robbie Rotten. Really appreciate how useful it is ) and still be competitive. So after I noticed your post was violating the rules anyway and, of no fault of your own, making someone consider turning the fight into a physics textbook fight, I pointed out the relevant rules to see if we could move this out of that direction. We're not blowing things out of proportion, just squaring things up! 

I proposed a rule fixer upper to make this more clear. =3 I also have another question for you in an above post.

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1 minute ago, LastLight said:

Mountain King nailed it. The buffing thing covers that. 

But what I am talking about technically isn't buffing.

Buffing is applying an effect to ones self to increase stats for an extended period of time. (Kaioken)

I am talking about Just prepping a punch so it moves at 300fps.

If this is counted as a buff, then thank you, you answered my question. Like,

-Karate kid takes stance for kick- (Prep)

-Karate kid launches his foot at 300fps fo yo' dome piece-

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5 minutes ago, Bardic Knowledge said:

But what I am talking about technically isn't buffing.

Buffing is applying an effect to ones self to increase stats for an extended period of time. (Kaioken)

I am talking about Just prepping a punch so it moves at 300fps.

If this is counted as a buff, then thank you, you answered my question. Like,

-Karate kid takes stance for kick- (Prep)

-Karate kid launches his foot at 300fps fo yo' dome piece-

That's something that was actually brought up earlier! There are people who view preps like they can either provide advantages through raw power and others view them like they're to be used to provide situational advantages. I've already made a note about this so it can be addressed going forward, maybe in the next iteration of the tournament. As of right now, I'd say that the only things that can be prepped are the things listed in your abilities section or your passives, although passives being able to be prepped is an interesting conversation to have, too. 

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1 minute ago, LastLight said:

That's something that was actually brought up earlier! There are people who view preps like they can either provide advantages through raw power and others view them like they're to be used to provide situational advantages. I've already made a note about this so it can be addressed going forward, maybe in the next iteration of the tournament. As of right now, I'd say that the only things that can be prepped are the things listed in your abilities section or your passives, although passives being able to be prepped is an interesting conversation to have, too. 

Yeah, cause, I would hate to see someone use the jumping power of 300fps to snag my bard up and beat him to death.

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You can prep your passives to make them stronger, IIRC. Sigil Warden is prepping his character's reaction speed and agility passives for example.

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I'll get to work on some rule updates tonight. I'm not above implementing rules as the tournament is ongoing to get the image that was envisioned for these matches originally. The ones that will be applied now seem simple enough. I'll post them here for perusal. 

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The issue with wanting characters to survive most prepped attacks is, as I told you in a PM during the start of the tournament, the current rules have a massive disparity between durability and damage done.  The durability of a character at base is human, unless they have any passives in endurance. A single prepped attack is stated to have:

Quote

One good way to quantify what preps allow is to declare the strength and circumference of an explosion if using one prep to create one, or two preps. With one prep, you can essentially create a functional concussion grenade with a casualty circumference of seven feet and force of five PSI ( most buildings except concrete collapse, fatal injuries like blown off limbs and internal damage are possible ). Two preps doubles the circumference, speed and force, which is monstrous. ( Useful link ) That means a once prepped punch can do the same damage as that first explosion, ie breaking bones and causing formidable internal damage.

Even with a passive geared towards durability, taking a single prepped attack to the face directly is going to end a character's time in the tournament. With that said, this isn't opposed to how T1 has normally played out. Getting hit [unless it is on your terms] is meant to be pretty devastating. Prepped attacks are meant to be either massively deliberating or end the battle, if they are able to get off. Since players are getting to store a single prep at the start of a fight, it is a significant buff to offense. There's less counter-play to this, since a player cannot stop the plan of their opponent from coming into fruition due to the one free turn of prepping. Due to the current structure of events, prepping for defense is the worst possible outcome [well, aside from not prepping.]

  • Goku - Preps Ki for Kamehameha.
  • Vegeta - Preps Ki Shield.
  • Goku - Preps Ki for Instant Transmission.
  • Vegeta - Preps Ki Shield.

Now, Goku can hold onto his two preps of Ki for his attack. The same is said for Vegeta. Unfortunately, Goku gets to control the pace of the entire match. They are both left to only using Quick Draw actions, but the moment that Vegeta gets into a botched situation, Goku has the ability to deploy his Kamehameha or his Instant Transmission to take out Vegeta. Had Vegeta instead opted for a Ki Aura to protect his body, Goku would have been at even a further prep advantage due to being able to simply attack Vegeta with normal actions, while waiting for the Ki Aura to run out. At which point, he'd have two preps to dish out as necessary. In the above case, the two characters are operating under the same rules, and expectations of each other. What's for more likely would be:

  • Goku - Preps Ki for Kamehameha.
  • Edward - Inscribes Alchemical Symbols into the ground to create a wall to react to the attack.
  • Goku - Preps Ki for Instant Transmission.

Now, if Goku opts to not attack, Edward has wasted his prep. The wall might be useful at some point, but as a defense it is easily circumvented by Goku. This makes the prep advantage automatically fall towards Goku. If we also begin to look at passives, even in situations where Edward would attack instead of prepare defenses... If Goku was geared towards durability, or even had 'recovering' aura shield that dampens blows that recycles every few attacks, Goku would be able to generate the necessary preps regardless of what Edward was doing. It's one of the reason that many passives are pretty terrible that are being used by characters in the tournament. Most people went with raw physical boosts [certainly for speed], yet most weren't even half the effectiveness of the passives that were listed in the rules as options. Had players went for more 'game logic' behind their builds, you'd have seen characters that could have taken hits simply due to abusing passives. There are two such passives that are in the rules that had people used, their characters would have taken numerous blows without problems.

As things are currently written, people are going to continue to get one shot. Part of it is due to the nature of T1, the other is due to having a cap on how long buffs/defenses can last, rather than it be a matter of them having 'HP' that gets used when they are hit or used. Of course, you can't help the characters that were made. Most characters cannot take a hit. Even those that can take a hit, rely on having their character aware of the attack and in a position to do something. This could have been avoided with the passives being move negation tools [as some are listed to be in the rules], but I believe people didn't want 'get out of jail cards.' Perhaps they didn't realize how easily it would have been to do.

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I agree that a one prep attack containing the power of a grenade is a bit of a problem for a non-lethal tournament, I wouldn't have included that bit in the rules personally. I don't think there's a need to make that type of direct comparison to a real life explosion of whatever magnitude, since the way an attack or effect actually manifests has all sorts of possibilities besides a straightforward explosion, and the comparison made does directly contradict the desire to have people not "die" (i.e. get KO'd) in one hit. This is the same thing BFC's suggestion was made to address.

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26 minutes ago, LastLight said:

I'll get to work on some rule updates tonight. I'm not above implementing rules as the tournament is ongoing to get the image that was envisioned for these matches originally. The ones that will be applied now seem simple enough. I'll post them here for perusal. 

If possible, I'd like if any rule changes or updates be applied in between rounds. I don't really want rules changing mid fight. 

Robbie Rotten and LastLight like this

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