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supernal

Clubs on Valucre

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@supernal I think that canonized post requirement is too steep for a new feature in it's infancy. I wouldn't even qualify to have one despite running my own organizations like Babylon for 2+ years or in all my posts dealing with the Dead because I hadn't canonized any of them. Now that could be an oversight on my part but I was new at the time and I hadn't been interested enough in the canon world yet. Even in the example of your Handymen, that's been going for quite a while and with reliable people yet you've only just recently crossed the threshold you've required of this.

What's the harm in letting any one start a Club, especially new members, with softer requirements (let alone separate from canonization)? As it stands it appears to be demanding that organizations either be pre-existing or that they be fully fleshed out, operational and already in canon before qualification for something that's literally in beta and testing. If the Club feature can't aid in the initial development of orgs and can't be freely accessed by new members, then I'm not a fan.

Edited by Off Topic

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Should every group exist to impact canon? If for example Jim wants to wage war against Herbert and the two have kingdoms that battle, but neither want to bother canonizing it, should they be excluded from using clubs?

 

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10 minutes ago, Off Topic said:

@supernal I think that canonized post requirement is too steep for a new feature in it's infancy. I wouldn't even qualify to have one despite running my own organizations like Babylon for 2+ years or in all my posts dealing with the Dead because I hadn't canonized any of them. Now that could be an oversight on my part but I was new at the time and I hadn't been interested enough in the canon world yet. Even in the example of your Handymen, that's been going for quite a while and with reliable people yet you've only just recently crossed the threshold you've required of this.

What's the harm in letting any one start a Club, especially new members, with softer requirements (let alone separate from canonization)? As it stands it appears to be demanding that organizations either be pre-existing or that they be fully fleshed out, operational and already in canon before qualification for something that's literally in beta and testing. If the Club feature can't aid in the initial development of orgs and can't be freely accessed by new members, then I'm not a fan.

Continuing to use HM as an example, it took me a little over a year of not very seriously seeking to complete threads to meet the criteria. The people are reliable because I helped them be that by driving threads along as the group leader. Two members, Giseppi and Anais, stopped posting and I got to the goal in spite of that. If I want to hit 100, then it will require some level of focus from me. Further you'll notice that I was personally involved in all of those threads and was pretty leisurely about doing them back to back (vs simultaneously). A group with the same number of people dividing their attention strategically rather than a single person driving multiple threads would make the task exponentially easier. 

It isn't about how long a group has been around but what they've actually done; the fact that I was able to "leisurely" (that is to say while running multiple unrelated threads and events) match this criteria in one year or so while Babylon (which you haven't actively been recruiting or posting for) hasn't in two years isn't a sign of a failed criteria for me. 

I also want to use this feature specifically to incentivize more canon activity so that will always be a part of the requirement. If you don't want to canonize stuff then you can create and manage a group the same way people have been for the life of the site basically. The harm in opening it up entirely is in creating a bunch of stuff that'll never get used (see: Org board). I'd rather avoid having them made than having to come back to clean up a bunch of dead groups that don't get used.

As a note you should still be able to canonize things retroactively, assuming BL approval  

So ultimately I think you're just won't be a fan, since my intention isn't for Clubs to be anything close to the "initial development" point. That's what the Organization board is for, where anyone can post any kind of org they want for no more a cost than the time it takes them to fill a template. A Club is a goal, not a starting point. 

I will say that I've brought up lowering the post requirement to Damon but that was unrelated to the convo at hand 

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1 minute ago, Praetorian said:

Should every group exist to impact canon? If for example Jim wants to wage war against Herbert and the two have kingdoms that battle, but neither want to bother canonizing it, should they be excluded from using clubs?

 

Referencing my post above they would just make their groups / orgs like they normally would. Clubs as a feature I want to use for incentivizing canon material

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2 minutes ago, supernal said:

Continuing to use HM as an example, it took me a little over a year of not very seriously seeking to complete threads to meet the criteria. 

That's absurd. If the standard posting rate is 2 to 3 days per reply, then we're looking at 200 to 300 days (standard). Divide this by four simultaneous posts and that's still two months before qualification.

Not every one has the pull or reputation that you or I do.

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1 minute ago, Off Topic said:

That's absurd. If the standard posting rate is 2 to 3 days per reply, then we're looking at 200 to 300 days (standard). Divide this by four simultaneous posts and that's still two months before qualification.

Not every one has the pull or reputation that you or I do.

Two months is a completely and totally acceptable timeline for me for access to Clubs.

Again, my intention is not to have Clubs be the initial point of development for organizations, but an end point. I've seen people complete a quest in a year that others have in two months and in two weeks (just two new members, no "pull" needed). So to that end I feel that two months isn't shabby at all, especially as it safeguards against the one-shot creations that go nowhere and do nothing.

You don't get a Club by just sitting around and waiting, it's something you have to consciously work to achieve and with that in mind, yeah, that timeline and post effort seems pretty reasonable. 

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5 minutes ago, supernal said:

You don't get a Club by just sitting around and waiting, it's something you have to consciously work to achieve and with that in mind, yeah, that timeline and post effort seems pretty reasonable. 

It's not reasonable at all considering there's no actual incentive to have a Club in the first place. This is not how you launch a test feature. This is for site navigation, it has no guarantee or implication of IC (or canon) authority or dominion so it's completely unreasonable to set strict canon requirements of it. They're unrelated.

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1 minute ago, Off Topic said:

It's not reasonable at all considering there's no actual incentive to have a Club in the first place. This is not how you launch a test feature. This is for site navigation, it has no guarantee or implication of IC (or canon) authority or dominion so it's completely unreasonable to set strict canon requirements of it. They're unrelated.

Okey doke. I accept that I suck and will simply reap what I sow no problem 

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3 minutes ago, supernal said:

Okey doke. I accept that I suck and will simply reap what I sow no problem 

lmao

Anyways, guyz this is a beta run. Gotta start from somewhere. I remember when military promotions took 2/3 threads lol

Let the river water flow young padawan

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Since April, so about 6 months ago, 20+ threads have been created in the Organization subboard. Ostensibly these are groups. If I was pressed for it, I'd say maybe half of those are currently active and maybe a quarter are seriously consistent, being generous on both counts

The Org board, serving as a "anyone can create stuff here for whatever" place, is sufficiently open to new and old members that just want to do whatever with no accountability or metrics to satisfy

Introducing this structure into Clubs as an opening salvo isn't a good first step in my book

The freeform nature of Valucre means that anyone can spin up criminals and put them into a criminal organization, for example, with many of them starting at a level of presupposed cohesion with access to material resources. Which is fine, because sometimes that's the story you gotta tell right? Not everyone wants to describe the weeks of travel between areas separated by hundreds of miles; not everyone wants to have to build an org from scratch just to fill a role

But if someone asks me of the Org board "which of these groups are active?" and "which of these groups have actually affected the canon", ie which of them are established through submitted and accepted activity versus just whatever gets written in the background narrative, both of these questions can ideally be answered by "check Clubs!" instead of "well look through the organization board and see which ones are posted recently and then maybe ask the creator if they're still active - hopefully they also included a list of thread activity"

I get that the way I want to do Clubs isn't the way everyone wants to see Clubs done but it's something I want to at least try. So I'm gonna. If it fails I'll switch it up (or burn it down), and if it doesn't I'll refine on the fly

Edited by supernal

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There have been quite a few more clubs added, which I'm happy about. I'm tracking their additions in the changelog section of the first post

As a note to club creators, at the prompting of a member I spoke to the software developers, and they confirmed there is no way to default have your members following the clubs they sign up for. Your forum, usually called Discussion unless you change it or make something new, has to be followed manually by clicking the Follow button in the upper right. This will send them notifications to new threads. So I suggest making sure your members know that

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