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Fierach

Feast of Blades Tournament (Canon Restrictions Removed)

Trueblade Tournament Format  

11 members have voted

  1. 1. Setting to the tournament bracket and seeds, but you guys have the option of:

    • Single Elimination
    • Double Elimination


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If the preference is public view of discussions to crowd source wisdom then I’d suggest a separate ooc for each match, made only when needed rather than for all matches every round by default 

Either way not clogging is a generally good design idea!

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@Die Shize no worries here, there’s no conflict, just clarification. I’m approaching this tournament from a learning angle both IC and OOC so I don’t mind working things out in public! That said @The Alexandrian I’ll set up a separate OOC later/tomorrow and answer you there. Thanks for the references!!

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10 hours ago, jaistlyn said:

@Die Shize no worries here, there’s no conflict, just clarification. I’m approaching this tournament from a learning angle both IC and OOC so I don’t mind working things out in public! That said @The Alexandrian I’ll set up a separate OOC later/tomorrow and answer you there. Thanks for the references!!

All good. I really just meant "discussion" in its base form and not strictly arguing or whatever. Discussion happens for these kinds of events and it can get continuous especially if everyone is discussing their fight in this OOC thread lol. On the other hand, not my call and supernal's "crowd source wisdom" mention makes sense.

I am also approaching this tournament from a learning angle both IC and OOC. My character is a proven warrior and I hope to prove that by controlling him but warriors can always learn more. This is also the first time I have fought with a weapon like a halberd. Definitely takes some getting used to!

 

Here's a good video on how certain weapons aren't as cleanly identified as we all would hope, namely pole-arms. 00:49 is where it gets interesting.

Spoiler

 

And here are two types of cutlasses

Spoiler

Pirates6.jpg

Almost just a shorter version of a sabre

 

pirate-sword.jpg

More your "pirate sword" first thought of a cutlass

So this is why I've gotten into the habit of not just stating what weapon I'm wielding but giving some basic description regarding things like length and rough curvature of the blade where appropriate. However, though we're writers, in this case a picture is better than words!

Edited by Die Shize

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The second cutlass above is a work of fantasy based on older styles like this scimitar here MNAFCE775_SEQ_002_P.JPG%26Ninv=CE775

It's highly stylized, meant as a work of novelty more than a depiction of historical fact.  They're sometimes called Arabian cutlasses but again, they're fiction.

It is good that you pointed out that cutlasses are almost short sabres, in fact that's closer to the truth than you might expect.  Cutlasses are contemporary to the military sabre in Western Europe and they are designed for the tight quarters of ship combat.  What you'll find in antique examples of cutlasses is that they weight just about the same as a cavalry Sabre but are significantly shorter with stockier blades.  You'll also find that they have metal grips and fittings, as well as metal scabbards because of how fast wood and leather rot from salt air.

 

This has been your daily sword lesson from a huge sword dork.

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And to add to the above, since we are ultimately a fantasy community, it’s important to bear the weapon type in mind whether it’s a design from real life or a fantasy counterpart as with the mentioned cutlass. 

Scimitar is another fun one. You get a scimitar that has a wider blade, similar to the cutlass that I have a pic of above, and a scimitar that is quite similar in design to a shamshir, or even like those trendy elven scimitars that are also called elven cutlasses from something like The Lord of the Rings.

Great thing about fighting in a fantasy setting is that you can draw from both pools of weapon designs from real life or fantasy versions of them. And even the best fighters among us are never going to fight as realistically as they would in real life—my sword swings at you via words, not actual physics—so much of the time the difference between a thinner blade and a wider blade can be something of a moot point in roleplay PVP.

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@Die Shize Scimitar is an English word derived from French.  It's more akin to the word "Bread" in use - by which I mean it's broadly applicable.  The word itself just means "a curved sword of the orient", but in practice it means "curved sword from the region of Turkey all the way across to Sri Lanka".  So a Shamshir is a scimitar 😄

So the term Scimitar doesn't reference a specific sword, but rather a region and a trend.  😄

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42 minutes ago, Spooky Mittens said:

@Die Shize Scimitar is an English word derived from French.  It's more akin to the word "Bread" in use - by which I mean it's broadly applicable.  The word itself just means "a curved sword of the orient", but in practice it means "curved sword from the region of Turkey all the way across to Sri Lanka".  So a Shamshir is a scimitar 😄

So the term Scimitar doesn't reference a specific sword, but rather a region and a trend.  😄

Ahh! Good to know.

Last week I learned something similar with two polearms, I think glaive and something else, where they were presented as entirely different weapons but it turned out that one had its name from one nation and the other had its name from another nation but they were practically the same weapon...

And then there’s the kopis which is basically the same as the falcata? Just different countries? 

I think overall because of these varying languages and designs it falls upon us as roleplayers to make sure that whatever we are calling our weapon it is adequately explained and better yet has a picture for it. 

So if my generic longsword (which I believe can be an arming sword, hand and a half sword, bastard sword...) has a one-handed hilt or a two-handed hilt then I should probably mention which it is. That’s more important than whether I call it a longsword or a bastard sword or what have you.

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So on the subject of swords, the terms arming sword, longsword, and bastard sword are modern, and they aren't necessarily interchangeable.  Arming swords are always one handed, that's their defining trait, so it's never gonna be a two handed arming sword.  That's where the simplicity ends though, because longswords cover the swords of a similar shape, but for two handed use.  Bastard swords are a sub classification for longswords, so they could be various sizes and the defining term is much less useful than arming sword.

Historical people just called them all sword though, they didn't bother much with categories and labels.

Ewart Oakeshott actually has a very useful typology chart about the swords of Europe and I'd recommend it as a reference https://www.albion-swords.com/articles/oakeshott-typology.htm

Edited by Spooky Mittens

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12 minutes ago, Spooky Mittens said:

So on the subject of swords, the terms arming sword, longsword, and bastard sword are modern, and they aren't necessarily interchangeable.  Arming swords are always one handed, that's their defining trait, so it's never gonna be a two handed arming sword.  That's where the simplicity ends though, because longswords cover the swords of a similar shape, but for two handed use.  Bastard swords are a sub classification for longswords, so they could be various sizes and the defining term is much less useful than arming sword.

Historical people just called them all sword though, they didn't bother much with categories and labels.

Ewart Oakeshott actually has a very useful typology chart about the swords of Europe and I'd recommend it as a reference https://www.albion-swords.com/articles/oakeshott-typology.htm

I watched somewhere that a sword with a blade length of an arming sword could yet have a two handed hilt. It was a video that also mentioned how two-handed longswords (with their longer blades) are not ideal to use with a shield as much as a one-handed arming sword. And that even if you for some reason had a sword whose blade was the length of an arming sword but whose hilt was two-handed then the hilt itself would still get more in the way than a one-handed hilt.

Seems like, especially when you isolate periods and regions, like Europe, there’s less need in applying unique names beyond “sword” because there’s less internal variety than there is with polearms. So that actually makes sense now that I read how evidently back then they just said “sword” a lot.

Minus ones like claymore, Zweihander, catering to more specifics?

 

 

EDIT: This is generalized but also conversed about in regards to applying this knowledge in our current tournament, however maybe it’s best to have this topic as a separate thread, particularly since we could potentially get into deep discussions about it!

Edited by Die Shize

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This discussion is all very interesting, but I hope we don't necessarily have to delve into the exact length of a sword in order to write a battle O.O. As someone who doesn't know any swordplay at all, it's hard for me to imagine the actual nuances of using a one handed sword vs using a two handed sword with one hand.. a sword is a sword and my character probably knows what sword to use...

As a musician it's like me delving into the difference between the wood used in my flute and the difference in fingerings between having an extra hole drilled underneath or having no hole, and whether I prefer the membrane to be glued on tight or loose. A flute is a flute and it plays music. I want to write about the emotions presented in the music, metaphors about its melody. I want to assume my character knows how to play the instrument and what they prefer in its configuration, without actually delving into its actual construction. If that makes any sense!

 

Edited by jaistlyn

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15 minutes ago, Die Shize said:

I watched somewhere that a sword with a blade length of an arming sword could yet have a two handed hilt. It was a video that also mentioned how two-handed longswords (with their longer blades) are not ideal to use with a shield as much as a one-handed arming sword. And that even if you for some reason had a sword whose blade was the length of an arming sword but whose hilt was two-handed then the hilt itself would still get more in the way than a one-handed hilt.

Seems like, especially when you isolate periods and regions, like Europe, there’s less need in applying unique names beyond “sword” because there’s less internal variety than there is with polearms. So that actually makes sense now that I read how evidently back then they just said “sword” a lot.

Minus ones like claymore, Zweihander, catering to more specifics?

A sword with a blade length of an arming sword, so, roughly 26-30~ inches, but with a two handed hilt assembly, is just a really short longsword (or in other words it's a bastard sword).  To break down how these terms are used: Arming Sword refers to any type of cruciform double edged sword from Europe meant for use with one hand.  Longsword refers to any cruciform double edged sword from Europe designed for use in two hands.  Bastard sword refers to swords that have the characteristics of a longsword, but which are of a length closer to the arming sword.

Ah, specifically, Europeans did break down swords with different names, but they cared less about the actual length or whether it was one or two handed.  Any sword shaped like a cross but with two edges was called "sword".  If it was the same shape but only had one edge, it was a Falchion instead.  (Please don't make me go into super great detail about Falchions I'll be here all week T ^T)

Claymore is a fun one.  Claymore is really a misnomer as it is used to refer to a number of different swords from Scotland.  Most famously is the Scottish greatsword, but less known is the basket hilted broadsword.  It's use really depends on when you ask, rather than who.

Zweihander is German, and it's not really the name of a type of sword, because they would have still just called it schwert.  It's more of a modern term as well, so Zweihander in function is more of an adjective than a noun.  Of course adjectives are alien to german because they just turn everything in a compound word, so Zweihander should read more like zweihanderschwert, which means "two handed sword" in English.  😄

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And there you have it from our resident sword expert. 

I’m taking notes by the way. What little I know is from the mercy of take-it-as-it-is wikipedia articles and the odd bouts of curiosity-trumps-laziness when I decide to branch out toward other sources. Youtube seems pretty informational though. There are some channels whose presenters seem to know what they’re talking about. Another one I enjoyed was pointing out the questionable heads in fantasy hammers, where it’s this giant thing on a haft, and how that would be quite heavy and spread the impact force instead of concentrate it on a single part. I kept that in mind with my warhammer...

I find this stuff interesting to learn here and there, especially if I’m fighting. I mean, I’ve always been interested in things like HEMA, just...not interested enough in order to do something about it. xD

 

 

Next on Swords and Stuff: Anime Katanas!

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21 hours ago, jaistlyn said:

This discussion is all very interesting, but I hope we don't necessarily have to delve into the exact length of a sword in order to write a battle O.O. As someone who doesn't know any swordplay at all, it's hard for me to imagine the actual nuances of using a one handed sword vs using a two handed sword with one hand.. a sword is a sword and my character probably knows what sword to use...

As a musician it's like me delving into the difference between the wood used in my flute and the difference in fingerings between having an extra hole drilled underneath or having no hole, and whether I prefer the membrane to be glued on tight or loose. A flute is a flute and it plays music. I want to write about the emotions presented in the music, metaphors about its melody. I want to assume my character knows how to play the instrument and what they prefer in its configuration, without actually delving into its actual construction. If that makes any sense!

 

Talk dirty about these-I mean tell me about these flutes >_>

Nah I kid. However, as a rough analogy, this would less be the differences between flutes, and more so the difference between a flute and a recorder, or an oboe. And that guy in the corner with the trombone is a greatsword, while my walkman is a pistol.

Sword forms and analogues developed similarly in many places though, of course with deviations accounting for culture and surroundings. The principles that go into the act of sticking the other guy with the pointy end remain the same all over. With all else being equal, if one person has a longer sword the other, that guy will have an advantage when trying to stab (and if you guys are going down to the raw inches on this you're not having fun nor are you making it fun). 

I'll continue when I get home. I've been ill over the weekend, but I'm glad to see nothings on fire yet. 

Edited by Fierach

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