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Fierach

Feast of Blades Tournament (Canon Restrictions Removed)

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I mean, if you swing a broadsword two-handed full force at somebody's steel breast-plate in fantasy, I'd say odds are good that you've cut into it a bit and maybe wounded them. You certainly didn't cut through the thing like tin foil, and your sword is probably now trapped in that gouge because you went about your attack in a such a silly fashion and you're about to get fucked by the reply, but still, you've cut into it. There are many other things you could've done that would have been more effective.

Realistically, you probably did jack shit other then maybe the sheer impact of such a blow unbalancing them. 

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I guess that’s where clarity is good to have, because “fantasy” is such a broad term that there are no inherent parameters to refer to off the bat.

From a fantasy point, it does make some sense, but also opens up many variables. Which is fine but it might mean legitimately asking questions like this—

What can an arming sword do to half-plate in our tournament? I’m wielding an arming sword and my opponent is wearing half-plate, so would a one-handed swing cut into their greave or pauldron in similar fashion? Would the tip penetrate the breastplate to an extent if the sword is thrusted?

I realize that PVP generally includes ‘try and find out’ but, in character and in universe, my guy would have a much better idea than I would of what would work and what would not, whether that breastplate can survive that sword or not, especially in a situation where armor is more standardized than not, so the OOC questions seem warranted. I mean, until now, I was under the assumption that the broadsword example would in our tournament conversely go the way of the realistic outcome lol

There is of course a selfish perspective to wanting to know, given that I brought a sword to an armor fight, but yeah

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I feel that the strength of the armor should have been established beforehand if it isn't as strong as steel.  If it is sufficiently substandard and someone could just stab right through it, there's not much of a point to wearing armor considering that the alternative is ninja dodging and katana-ing everything.  If the armor is substandard, for whatever reason, I imagine that the shields are also substandard.  Could have something to do with the fall of Tia, I guess.  Steel must be more expensive now.

What are the weapons provided for the tournament made of?

I'll admit that I don't quite know what all half-plate protects.  I was under the impression that half-plate is just D&D armor with no real world equivalent.  I was also under the impression that greaves typically protect the entire leg including, in many cases, the wearer's feet, but I think that's because greaves are often lumped together with cuisses in video games for convenience.

So...

The combatants' feet are also, presumably, vulnerable to attack.  Their torsos are protected by breastplates.  Their shoulders are protected by pauldrons.  Their forearms, elbows, and upper arms are exposed.  Their hands are protected by gauntlets.  They have some element of thigh protection from above courtesy of tassets but it isn't great due to lack of cuisses.  Their heads and necks are also exposed.

If that is the case, coupled with substandard armor materials, there's no reason not to use a sword for everything.  The padding, which would normally "live" beneath the armor, is all there is to contend with for much of the combatants' arms and legs.

It also makes the use of blunt weapons silly.  If you can cut people whether or not they're wearing armor and the armor doesn't afford much protection to begin with, blunt weapons aren't that useful.

Edited by The Alexandrian

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What can an arming sword do against half plate?

Well its half-plate. There are many parts of the body that won't be armored. You don't have head protection. You can aim for joints, you can go for impact blows with the pommel/guard of the weapon. You can half-sword for a more powerful thrust. You can grapple. 

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20 minutes ago, The Alexandrian said:

I feel that the strength of the armor should have been established beforehand if it isn't as strong as steel.  If it is sufficiently substandard and someone could just stab right through it, there's not much of a point to wearing armor considering that the alternative is ninja dodging and katana-ing everything.  If the armor is substandard, for whatever reason, I imagine that the shields are also substandard.  Could have something to do with the fall of Tia, I guess.  Steel must be more expensive now.

What are the weapons provided for the tournament made of?

I'll admit that I don't quite know what all half-plate protects.  I was under the impression that half-plate is just D&D armor with no real world equivalent.  I was also under the impression that greaves typically protect the entire leg including, in many cases, the wearer's feet, but I think that's because greaves are often lumped together with cuisses in video games for convenience.

So...

The combatants' feet are also, presumably, vulnerable to attack.  Their torsos are protected by breastplates.  Their shoulders are protected by pauldrons.  Their forearms, elbows, and upper arms are exposed.  Their hands are protected by gauntlets.  They have some element of thigh protection from above courtesy of tassets but it isn't great due to lack of cuisses.  Their heads and necks are also exposed.

If that is the case, coupled with substandard armor materials, there's no reason not to use a sword for everything.  The padding, which would normally "live" beneath the armor, is all there is to contend with for much of the combatants' arms and legs.

It also makes the use of blunt weapons silly.  If you can cut people whether or not they're wearing armor and the armor doesn't afford much protection to begin with, blunt weapons aren't that useful.

I want Fierach to chime in on the durability of armor so I’ll refrain from commenting further on that, except that I share your concern. For instance, my stab toward the gap between your pauldron and breastplate was a guaranteed miss, but that was a fun challenge. One reason I admittedly picked the sword was for that challenge. If, however, I can use it to penetrate your breastplate and reach the heart, then I’m okay with my sword being stuck. xD

 

I tried to cover half-plate above and greaves and such further up in this thread. Yes, there are common misconceptions about what areas certain peaces of armor cover, courtesy of various mediums and such, and conveniences. This is something all competitors should brush up on. Heck, in one novel I read, a character was known for always wearing armor that covered his legs from below hip to toe. But it sounds cooler saying “the man in greaves” than “the man in cuisses, poleyn, greaves and sabatons”.

Meanwhile, my understanding is that a breastplate doesn’t cover the ‘torso’ per se but rather just the front of it, while a ‘backplate’ covers the back, and a cuirass is both pieces together. 

I also believe that you can’t always so easily swing a sword and cut through something like a gambeson as though it’s made of butter. There are some physical revelations you learn when you research something as simple as swinging a sword, and regard the type and shape and sharpness of that sword and the swing itself in relation to the target. A sword can just ‘slide’ across a gambeson and indeed that is in part why it served as lowest-tier armor. Low tier but armor no less.

 

@Fierach

Having since come to terms with what ‘half plate’ entails, I purposely picked an arming sword so that I can challenge myself against armor gaps and areas where plate is not present, so certainly I agree with your points on arming sword vs half plate.

But my question was in regards to putting the blade against the plate itself in a similar scenario to putting a broadsword against plate, under this ‘fantasy physics’ umbrella. Because if I can somehow use my arming sword to slash through plate then now I have more options at my disposal besides just half-swording, armor gaps, etc.

Except for you by right of tournament head, who is to say what fantasy aspect is allowed or disallowed? If a two handed swing of a broadsword can split plate and the body beneath it, even if only to wound, how do we determine the physics required for an arming sword to do the same thing? Or even a dagger? Maybe the wielder has to run head on and thrust the dagger with both hands to penetrate the plate? 

Maybe those scenarios do indeed default to ‘try and find out’, but it just seems like an OOC ruling would inevitably be called in. “I thrust my dagger and it will reach your heart through your plate if it hits” but my opponent counters with “Your dagger is no match for my plate and it pings harmlessly off it” and I’m like “But I already said my dagger is able to do this” and now we’re both at a standstill.

Just seems like keeping this as close to realistic as we can (it will never be exact) might be the best course..?

For my part, this isn’t about nitpicking or confounding, but understanding, all in the interest if competing.

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If a full swing from a broadsword (also Spooky would kill me just for the sheer disambiguation of the word broadsword) cut could into plate, I'd say it requires a lot for an arming sword to accomplish the same feat. Your typical arming sword just doesn't have the same mass behind it.

If you changed the scenario to, one guy with an estoc (a weapon specifically designed to deal with mail and plate armor), running full tilt and throwing his entire momentum and mass into a a thrust on an enemy who happens to be standing still waiting to be stabbed, (and also probably asking "what're you gonna do, stab me?") then yeah, that's much more fair and plausible to punch through plate in such a scenario. 

Keeping it as close to realistic as we can is the best choice. 

@The Alexandrian As for weapon choice, yes you would be right, if a sword is able to cut through plate then it would be one of the more optimal weapons to use.  The Feast of Blades is not about optimizing or min-maxing however. 

Its about characters wishing to display their valor, and skills, and pit their abilities against others nomatter who the are, and earn whatever they're looking for while doing so, be it fame, fortune, or something else entirely.

I mean, unless your character is the cold pragmatic type. Then by all means!

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Agreed on disambiguation. That was in general the issue with my overall understanding. Also, lol.

I watched a video on the estoc before this conversation so using that as an example on your end actually helps me now understand all of this as ‘realism with a side of fantasy’. Neither extreme.

So I can take our suspiciously dubbed ‘broadsword’ for wedging itself into plate but not too deeply, an arming sword having a significantly tougher time, and it sounds like my dagger scenario was so extreme that it wasn’t worth your attention (and I mean that in the most relieved of ways), so this currently clears things up for me. 

Stay stabby, my friends.

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A hammer is a good weapon as it can easily smash a sword away from it's path due to the great mass difference and a hit would certainly make anyone understand how fearsome a weapon it is.

Good boys and girls who use swords should never trying taking a hit from a war hammer with a sword. Why? Try it out, then you'd understand why.

Maybe i could make a list of weapons with their advantages and disadvantages over other weapons and armors

Edited by Dauner Light

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10 hours ago, Dauner Light said:

A hammer is a good weapon as it can easily smash a sword away from it's path due to the great mass difference and a hit would certainly make anyone understand how fearsome a weapon it is.

Good boys and girls who use swords should never trying taking a hit from a war hammer with a sword. Why? Try it out, then you'd understand why.

Maybe i could make a list of weapons with their advantages and disadvantages over other weapons and armors

Why would anyone ever waste an attack trying to hit something as small and mobile as the blade of a sword?  On top of that, the attacker would be forfeiting the chance to injure the defender and the sword, due to its weight distribution, would recover faster than the war hammer.

Furthermore, arming swords and war hammers are often about the same weight.  It's the weight distribution that causes these weapons to handle differently.

10 hours ago, Fierach said:

As for weapon choice, yes you would be right, if a sword is able to cut through plate then it would be one of the more optimal weapons to use.  The Feast of Blades is not about optimizing or min-maxing however. 

Its about characters wishing to display their valor, and skills, and pit their abilities against others nomatter who the are, and earn whatever they're looking for while doing so, be it fame, fortune, or something else entirely.

I mean, unless your character is the cold pragmatic type. Then by all means!

I wholeheartedly disagree.

IC, this is a competition with deadly weapons.  They aren't blunted.  They aren't wooden.  Heck, the rules state that "no killing is preferential."  Armor is limited, more limited than any of them would have reason to expect, and I'm of the opinion that this was not disclosed at the start of the competition IC because I, as a player, have only just been informed of it and finished an entire round of combat completely ignorant to it.

We've already established that Fracture/Terrenus has cornered the market for psychopaths.  We've got body snatching aliens, several death/doom cults, less violent cults, cannibalistic raiders (had, in this case), destroyed/seceding megacities, a full-fledged civil war, and much, much more.

When killing is an option, you aren't going to blindly step into the ring with a potato peeler and hope for the best!  IRL, you wouldn't arrive at a showdown in the wild west armed with a shoe string; you would bring a six-shooter or a repeater or another type of gun.  In boxing, even, you wouldn't tie one hand behind your back, march up to your opponent, and command him/her to slug you as hard as he/she can to prove you're as tough as nails.

If the purpose of the Feast of Blades is, OoC, showing off, then why not pitch it as a collaborative effort like most of the fights on this forum?  For that matter, why ban powers, restrict armor to a list, and restrict weapons to regular melee weapons?  Why state that you're considering banning polearms?  I get that some of this is for flavor, but a lot of this definitely appears to be an attempt to balance a competitive system - a competitive system with limited protection by IC standards in Terrenus and a lethal option.

Death is death even if your character is magically healed.  It's nothing to scoff at or dismiss.  That sort of experience ought to leave marks in indelible ink, and most should fear it and try to avoid it.

Edited by The Alexandrian

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You are incorrect on one matter. Killing is not a really an option. Fighting to kill is. There's a subtle difference. Yes you're all running with scissors and accidents can happen, but at no point will your characters ever actually die. How is this accomplished? Magickdungottaexplainshit. You'll find out if it gets to that point. 

> In boxing, even, you wouldn't tie one hand behind your back, march up to your opponent, and command him/her to slug you as hard as he/she can to prove you're as tough as nails.

The other examples are a bit extreme, but I believe the practical application of this is called the rope a dope. Also Billy Rock brought a knife to a gun draw in Magnificent Seven. That was fun. Silly but fun. 

On another note, my apologies if you believe that it was not disclosed IC. I will endeavor to ensure that such things would be clearly made aware for the characters, and had originally run the assumption that would be something that they would have learned somehow beforehand. 

Also, gear in the FoB is restricted because it is the Feast of Blades, and not the Feast of Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker, or Feast of My powers are better then yours, or Feast of Armor of +2 to fire resistance. RP fighting has always been a collaborative effort, and the restrictions are there to put an emphasis on certain aspects of the battle then others, as well as ease newcomers into this style of combat. If it were a truly technical and hardcore competitive event, I doubt I'd get more then 4 people across the entire site, maybe 5 including myself.

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7 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Why would anyone ever waste an attack trying to hit something as small and mobile as the blade of a sword? 

I didn't mean hit the sword so much as i meant hit the sword in the hammer's path to the wielders body. Well i'm won't know much about hammers tbh. I'm more of a sword person

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Thank you for the information and your patience.

9 hours ago, Fierach said:

You are incorrect on one matter. Killing is not a really an option. Fighting to kill is. There's a subtle difference. Yes you're all running with scissors and accidents can happen, but at no point will your characters ever actually die. How is this accomplished? Magickdungottaexplainshit. You'll find out if it gets to that point.

This is extremely useful information because my character is up against...

On 9/8/2019 at 2:18 PM, Die Shize said:

Yeah if my character knows that a fatal blow won’t be fatal then he won’t hesitate in going for a fatal blow lol

I need to scheme a little before my next post.

Spoiler

home alone map GIF

 

Edited by The Alexandrian

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