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Explosions and MP

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Overall just splendid post. Nothing to add to it but just commenting on a single piece: knowing OPs stated penchant for My Hero Academia, I'm willing to bet that Bakugo of same will be a comparable model

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1 minute ago, supernal said:

Overall just splendid post. Nothing to add to it but just commenting on a single piece: knowing OPs stated penchant for My Hero Academia, I'm willing to bet that Bakugo of same will be a comparable model

I WAS JUST ABOUT TO MENTION BAKUGO!

And I was just talking to someone about how on-the-ball you are around here. I think now that this can be explained: you're a freakin' mind-reader!

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6 hours ago, Veloci-Rapture said:

I WAS JUST ABOUT TO MENTION BAKUGO!

And I was just talking to someone about how on-the-ball you are around here. I think now that this can be explained: you're a freakin' mind-reader!

Actual you hit it right on the nose. I was about to say my characters explosive flames are based off of Endeavor's Hellflame and Bakugo's Explosion so they work very similar to that.

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beak, you very much hit the nail on the head. Mild Powers is there as a moderation tool for conflict between players, and is a general guideline for people new to writing with each other, but if you and your writing partners (as well as the board leader, if you are wanting to affect lore) are in understanding about exceeding it and are having fun, then there is no problem. It is there to prevent players from using 'powers' to invalidate those who want to play weaker characters, or to (accidentally or deliberately) undermine the writing efforts that others have established over weeks, months, even years.

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1 hour ago, beak said:

I felt, and still feel, that unless my character possessed abilities proportionate to the random murderhobos she might encounter, they would force her out of anything she managed to build or achieve on the site. I know that roleplay is a consensual activity and that I can, therefore, unilaterally withdraw from interaction with any player at any time. However, my roleplaying ethos (and not everyone will share this perspective, but I doubt I'm alone) obliges me to interact with the players I encounter, regardless of whether I judge them to be acting in good faith.

Not much to add except that I feel the same way. This paragraph also describes my own beliefs when it comes to forum RP. Yes, I can ignore-list someone or withdraw from a scene, but it's never not going to feel like dirty pool to me.

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3 hours ago, Veloci-Rapture said:

Not much to add except that I feel the same way. This paragraph also describes my own beliefs when it comes to forum RP. Yes, I can ignore-list someone or withdraw from a scene, but it's never not going to feel like dirty pool to me.

I actually feel in stark contrast to the whole "arms race" implication being talked about and I've never experienced this even with my weakest character. I disagree that an arms race occurs (though you may feel it regardless; I can't control what you feel) with or without MP for two reasons:

  1. Available power and limits thereof in any threads, even ignoring MP rules, are inherently determined by three factors: participating players, theme of the thread, and board/ area. Whatever god-like powers a character has in a character sheet are naturally over-ruled by these three factors, especially as character sheets are non-canon and are only there to be referenced for contextual illumination. If a character seems overpowered in a thread, it is either because they ignored when of the three factors or you have misunderstood one. As an example, lets take Lilith since she's an easy character to classify as "OP" by many. In Thread X of Renovatio, she might use some bullshit magic mumbo jumbo to blow up an entire town. But then in Thread Z of Renovatio, her powers might be limited to something more like the force in Star Wars. I might write it as she's restraining herself for Reason X or might just not mention it at all. Maybe she doesn't use any abilities since the thread is more political. So rather than it being an arms race or some form of inherently competitive intent by new members asking about MP limits, I view it more like some people develop an inferiority complex toward their characters based on a perception of unequal power levels stated in character sheets and feel a need to raise their character's power level to match. Why? I have no idea. If you don't go out and seek combat with other characters, it's literally irrelevant. One might argue, "but Alex, Lilith will always beat an NPC so if she can kill it whenever she wants! So if I want the NPC to live and not be intimidated, I have to raise the level!" Okay. Sure. If the point of your character is to be unable to be intimidated, then yeah. But that has nothing to do with my description of Lilith; it's about your perception of how you want your character to behave.
  2. I have a character, Detective Hawk, who has 0 abilities. 0. None. He relies solely on the military technology he gets from Lagrimosa. Would he beat Lilith in a 1v1? Probably not. But does that make him inferior to her as a character simply because he "lost the arm race?" Absolutely not. He's rising through the ranks and does all sorts of missions from combat to investigative. If there's ever a mission where he faces someone as strong as Lilith, could he win? Maybe. It depends on the three variables. Furthermore, realistically not everyone is "equal" in terms of combat abilities. If you pit an untrained 16 year old girl against a trained MMA fighters, she's going to lose. Put Bill Gates against GSP in his prime, who's going to win? Does that make either one of them "inferior?" I vehemently disagree. An arms race only occurs if you compare your character to someone elses and determine that the value of the characters is power(s). I personally will never give Hawk even a modicum of "power" and have him always rely on technology because that's more fun when playing him. I'm also going to avoid 1v1 combat situations with him that I would enjoy with Lilith because that's not the purpose of his character. If it happens, it'll happen because it's part of a story or arc. 

Tl;Dr if you don't T1, who the fuck cares. Just don't be a dick and read the mood.

Granted there are the occasional members who are highly competitive and literally jump sites to fight new people while others do so just to stir shit or stir shit because of how competitive they are. But those people rarely actually RP. And if they do, regardless of any rules in place, they'll do what they want because the point of their character is "I'm the strongest super saiyan in the world." 

Ok. Good for them. Who cares. In my experience this kind of intentional behavior which persists after a PM is extremely rare (at least on Val). You should never assume their intention is to be competitive, adversarial, or otherwise asshole-like. Send a PM. Let them know that you are uncomfortable with the way their character is behaving in the thread. They will almost always apologize and change it. It's only adversarial when you make it adversarial. 

If I'm roleplaying and someone comes along in a public ooc and goes "Yo fuck you and your goddamn character. That's such OP bullshit if you don't change the core powers of you character I'm fucking leaving and never rping with you again."

Well. 

My response is probably "Fuck you."

But what if you say "Hey Alex, I'm not really comfortable with how Lilith raised so many zombies. Could you lower the number by half or something?" 

My response is likely to be "Sure! Sorry about that, I wasn't really sure where to limit the number since we've never rp'd together before." 

Suddenly, not so adversarial is it? And I limited the skills of my character without feeling that my character has been insulted or w.e.

Obv some people will say "fuck you" regardless of how you ask or communicate with them, but do you really want to RP with someone like that anyways? I wouldn't. But that's, like, idk, 1/50 people or smth. 

It's also vital to keep in mind that many new players come from sites that did not have such "reasonable" standards of power playing. So don't immediately assume they want to fuck up your shit just because they're having fun fantasizing about all the different types of powers they can give what's probably their alter ego but don't want to break site rules. I think it's actually commendable that they're going out of their way to ask about the limits so that they can make sure to stay within them, however close they end up to the line, rather than just ignoring everything and doing whatever they want. 

I don't mean for this to be a response directly to Veloci or Beak so don't take it as such nor did I mean to write so much, but I'm sick and tired of hearing people labor on about this "arms race" in roleplaying. Especially on Valucre. It happens during T1 tournaments, yes, because T1 is competitive PvP. The point is to take any advantage you can because the goal is to win a fight. There is no singular goal like that in free form roleplay so stop assuming everyone is out to beat your character. It's much more reasonable that they're just fucking annoyed at being so goddamn powerless while life fucks them three ways up the ass that they come to Val to imagine would life could be if they had the power to control their own life. Nothing to do with your "arms race" or some imaginary slow climb toward actual power playing.

 

I talked a bunch and went in a circle or two, but basically I disagree that an arms race is happening in forum RP outside of competitive PvP situations and posit that the Mild Powers rules is just common sense guidelines that is just asking people to not be assholes that disrespect the sovereignty of other people's characters. For years people have made a fuss about "keeping powers under control" and I find the whole concept irrelevant. Just play your character and stop being so concerned about how they compare to other characters that don't fall within the theme or purpose of your character.

Edited by Ataraxy

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Posted (edited)

If I can't understand what your character does, because your sheet is so poorly defined, I just don't RP with you. I feel if you can't be bothered to work on your CS, or are too lazy too, it will reflect in our narrative. Your profile is the heart when it comes to dispelling or clarifying fears or concerns. If I read Atar's profile and I see they can raise 100 undead, I can kindly ask if she tone it down for this thread and story and explain why before hand. Hence alleviating many issues. That being said, it doesn't help with the true OP, Meta Gaming and God Modding. As far as "MP" my real thoughts it depends on the setting and narrative. In the land of everyone being equally OP, No one is OP. Issue arises when you bring OP/powerful into a setting that derails it and ruins all tension and by extension interest. But can't beat that instant gratification most RPers want these days. -shrugs- @Ataraxy Tagged you because I mentioned your example.

Edited by Sombersong

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I would argue that there are a fair few scenarios where the principles behind MP matter outside of PvP.  In PvE, a swiss-army knife character can easily outshine and overshadow a more grounded character.  The power of utility abilities is rarely overstated.

Moreover, balance is of the utmost importance to Dungeon Masters.  In general, a good Dungeon Master will attempt to provide players with appropriate challenges.  When you have a group with a really powerful character and a really weak character, it is harder to craft appropriate challenges.  When you have a character with a +2 canon-backed item and a canon-backed ability allowing them to, say, transform into a giant fighting robot in the same party as a novice with a bag of rocks and a dream, it is even harder to match characters with appropriate challenges.

One of the ways Dungeon Masters can get around this is with monsters that are stronger when facing stronger enemies.  That aside, if Dungeon Masters elect to play NPCs as weak and incompetent now and mighty and capable two minutes from now without explaining how they went from A to B, the Dungeon Master has just opened a plot hole for critics to gain purchase and rip them apart with their own inconsistencies.

RP on forums like this is often complicated by the fact that the Dungeon Master is often also a player and often the amount of planning and oversight that goes into DMing is on the low end compared to tabletop RP.

Presenting a character who relies heavily on magitech as having 0 magical abilities doesn't tell the whole story.  Frequently, magitech is able to surpass MP limits.  For example, I've seen airships capable of achieving warp speed offered as canon rewards for Whispernight quests even though characters aren't allowed to teleport except when it suits plot meaning, in my mind, such powers should be exceptions that are difficult to reliably replicate not a marketable feature.  This is connected to my views on hard and soft magic systems, which I'll dive into later.  Point is, Peacekeepers with no powers armed with magitech are extremely dangerous, but if you gave them bog standard longswords, no powers (supernatural and preternatural), and no support, they would often be outmatched by combat-proficient characters armed with magitech.  Magic is magic regardless of whether it is innate or acquired.

Lilith is a character designed for collaborative combat and storytelling, and I would agree that MP isn't as necessary in collaborative combat and storytelling.  I know this opinion may not be popular, but if players agree on the outcome of combat beforehand, a lot of the game part of RP is sacrificed for the story part of RP.  The game part and the story part are different but connected.  There are different levels of collaborative combat and storytelling with varying levels of orchestration.  All the same, a plot hole is a plot hole, and de-powering a character for a scene without a reasonable explanation picks open plot holes.

Plot holes detract from immersion.

OP characters are boring and frustrating to quite a few other players.  I now circle back to the swiss-army knife character.  If your character is attempting to solve a complicated problem that you've invested a lot of time and effort in treating as a complicated problem and some other guy comes along and brute forces it with almighty power and omniscience, the whole plot can feel cheap.  This is part of the reason I treat the Enrele as a major threat; I could apply science and say "The Enrele interact with a host's nervous system and characters should be able to detect the chemicals/electricity exchanged between the parasite and the host for all subspecies of Enrele because they have an aversion to magic suggesting they manipulate their hosts via relatively mundane processes."

Vulnerabilities, flaws, fears, weaknesses, fallibility, etc. these things make characters feel more human.  Now, not everyone wants a human character.  Some people want to play out power fantasies, as others have observed, and/or operate under the false impression that IC failure closes doors instead of opening them.  IRL, failure is bad.  This is not true in RP.  Failure can, and should, send a plot in new and fascinating directions.  There's a scene I'm participating in where one of Mickey Flash's characters just faceplanted in front of a guard while trying to stealth, and I am super, super interested in how other character will react, how this will complicate the situation thereby adding to tension, and how this complication will influence the outcome.  In short, I really enjoyed reading that post.

Allow me to extend this thinking to a character who can summon ten thousand combat-capable units with no weird restrictions at will.  When the character doesn't summon ten thousand units in pretty much any situation, I ask, "Why?"  If there's no costs or limitations and I had the ability to summon ten thousand dudes, I would have those ten thousand dudes staff a landscaping company, go to culinary school to learn how to cook awesome meals, and go grocery shopping for me so I didn't have to wear a mask as often.  That's a big perk.  If I'm only using them to pour me a cold one every night, others will ask, "Why?"  If I have no response, I'm working with a soft magic system unless I have some limits I just don't share with others in which case I have a secret hard magic system.

Hard magic systems are cooler than soft magic systems in my book.  If your magic system doesn't have rules, you can Deus Ex Machina out of any situation - which kind of ruins tension and makes plots/plot elements feel cheap.  Hard magic systems are more immersive than soft magic systems and can add realism and tension to a story.

That said, I don't think it is fair to evaluate a player by that player's character sheet.  Some players prefer to keep the information others include in character sheets secret.  I, for instance, don't include backstories on my character sheets because that isn't common knowledge, isn't necessary for balancing, and is more interesting to reveal over time IC as bonds between characters strengthen.

MP helps people put their fingers on how powerful characters should be.  Some people want to play weak characters.  Many people specifically don't want to play weak characters.  Power fantasy players especially don't want to play weak characters.  It's easier to scale down and preserve your artistic integrity than scale up and preserve your artistic integrity.  Yes, there may be plot holes, but you avoid Deus Ex Machina.

 

To sum:

  1. Asking questions about MP isn't an attempt to powergame; it's an attempt to create balanced, powerful characters for the benefit of the player, other players, Dungeon Masters, and the plot.  Most conflict here is combat-focused, so having a powerful but not overpowered characters helps keep people engaged and characters relevant.
  2. Magitech items are basically magical abilities and often are more powerful than magical abilities.  After all, people quest for magical items more often than they quest for magical abilities even though canon-backed magical abilities are available.
  3. In RP, there is a game part and a story part.  Both are usually in play, to some extent, but increasing orchestration tends to decrease the game part in favor of the story part.  MP becomes less important as the game part decreases.
  4. Plot holes, Deus Ex Machina, and OP characters aren't good while failure and flaws IC are/can be good.  MP is important because it helps players balance their characters and avoid these three pitfalls.  Of course, we're writing as a hobby, so hopefully our critics are more forgiving of the plot holes we create.
  5. Hard magic systems help writers bring immersion and realism to the table.  Ergo, limits, including MP, are good to consider in RP.
  6. It isn't fair to judge a player by the level of detail in a character sheet.
  7. Most importantly, it is, in my opinion, necessary for characters to ordinarily abide by Mild Powers.  Explosive-based powers can abide by Mild Powers and are allowed.  Mild Powers largely limits destructive power range, insta-hits, and other unfair, godmod-y things, not energy output nor, for the most part, methods of application.  It's a matter of limits and coordination.  The specific restriction on explosives (one of them, anyway - I dunno if there are others that prompted the creation of this thread) came into effect after a group of villains, which one of my defunct characters was associated with, attempted to blow up a temple in Ignatz.  This decision may or may not have something to do with bomb attacks setting a low bar for villainy and destructive potential - they're a low-effort recourse for new players who want infamous characters without putting the work in.  I don't believe the intent of that restriction is to limit the use of explosive powers which can be about as destructive as elemental powers.
Edited by The Alexandrian

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I'm not going to reply line by line since writing up a response to the wall of text would likely take me a couple hours and I don't have to time, but I did read it. I'll respond to the bullet point though, since they are more concise and much shorter to address. 

15 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Asking questions about MP isn't an attempt to powergame; it's an attempt to create balanced, powerful characters for the benefit of the player, other players, Dungeon Masters, and the plot.  Most conflict here is combat-focused, so having a powerful but not overpowered characters helps keep people engaged and characters relevant.

I agree. P much what I said. Nothing more to say on that lol

15 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Magitech items are basically magical abilities and often are more powerful than magical abilities.  After all, people quest for magical items more often than they quest for magical abilities even though canon-backed magical abilities are available.

I'm assuming this is in reference to Hawk. Hawk relies on technology, not magitech. Which, yes, is a blurry line, and yes could be stretched into crossing MP. But arguing that facet misses the point of that argument which was to note how a character which isn't innately powerful is not superior to one that is. Whether a character can make up for their lack of raw power through other means and whether that crosses MP is a different story. The point was that the value of character is based on its core thematic, not its raw power output. A weak character is not inferior to stronger character because the weaker character can be killed or intimidated. And if you agree, then how is an arms race even relevant? 

15 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Allow me to extend this thinking to a character who can summon ten thousand combat-capable units with no weird restrictions at will.  When the character doesn't summon ten thousand units in pretty much any situation, I ask, "Why?"  If there's no costs or limitations and I had the ability to summon ten thousand dudes, I would have those ten thousand dudes staff a landscaping company, go to culinary school to learn how to cook awesome meals, and go grocery shopping for me so I didn't have to wear a mask as often.  That's a big perk.  If I'm only using them to pour me a cold one every night, others will ask, "Why?"  If I have no response, I'm working with a soft magic system unless I have some limits I just don't share with others in which case I have a secret hard magic system.

Going to answer this despite it not being a bullet point because it's a valid objection. Your example is a bit removed from Val in how you elaborate on it so I'm going to take a creative licence in answering the objection. Lets bring back Lilith since again it's an easy comparison. Lilith can summon ten thousand combat capable zombies without breaking a sweat and costs her nothing. Ezpz. Then you ask well, "why wouldn't you use it in any situation? I would."

The first assumption is that what you would do and what you think is reasonable is how the characters should and would behave. It seems to imply that because you can do something, you should do it just because you can and there aren't any consequences. I think this is flawed thinking. Characters and humans alike can be complex beings without irrational thinking patterns. Maybe I don't want to summon ten thousands combat ready beings all the time because I don't want to. Or maybe there are consequences other than personal ones, such as an military organization or entity like IPP being like "holy shit there's a random army that appeared, we better go swing our hammer of justice down." 

There are also factors to consider like character personality. Not all characters are the type that believes even a lion should give 100% to kill a mouse. Overkill is a thing. I can win this argument without killing you. I can take control of this country without even lifting a finger. I don't even have to kill this person to make them obey to me. Are all good examples of situations where a character would plausibly choose not to summon their army. 

Lets take it a step further and say that Lilith has the power to easily take over the world. Well, why should that assume that she would take over the world? I know that personally even if I had the chance to become, say, President of the US, I'd be like fuck that shit. 

There are many plausible reasons to do or not to do something that wouldn't, what did you call it, break immersion. 

15 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

In RP, there is a game part and a story part.  Both are usually in play, to some extent, but increasing orchestration tends to decrease the game part in favor of the story part.  MP becomes less important as the game part decreases.

I don't disagree and I also agree with your section about PvE. But, again, it refers more back to the factors of roleplaying that my post described than it does the mild powers guideline. If I'm questing with Veloci, I'm going to treat it differently than if I'm questing with Danzilla. Even with the same character. We'd find a plausible reason. Maybe the traps are harder. Maybe the cave removes magic from characters. W.e. I've done it before and it works well. It's not necessary to just have a character suddenly become weaker and create a plot hole. Val is a fantasy setting and so much shit can happen to explain stuff that stressing about there not being a reason, to me, is pointless. 

But, again, let's take reading the mood of the thread. Lets look at the mafia group in Renovatio. Every character is designed there to be lower powered. If someone were to introduce a character like Lilith into the setting, you are not reading the mood of the thread properly are thus over powered, even if you are within the limits of mild powers. This can extend to if there's a lower powered questing group and suddenly I throw in Lilith. Someone should turn around and be like "Yo dude I think Lilith is a bit strong for this. How will you make her fit?" And then we discuss possibilities about reasonable insertion. 

But I definitely agree with what I quoted above, though I'd ask you to further define what you mean by the "game part" since that's a bit vague and the line between game and story is rather hard to draw. I personally would posit that "story" is anything which focuses on the characters and "game" is anything which predominantly focuses on the players (such as T1). 

16 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Plot holes, Deus Ex Machina, and OP characters aren't good while failure and flaws IC are/can be good.  MP is important because it helps players balance their characters and avoid these three pitfalls.  Of course, we're writing as a hobby, so hopefully our critics are more forgiving of the plot holes we create.

I think this just refers back to my earlier response about an inability to read the mood of the thread when I addressed the 10k combat untit example. I'm not saying mild powers is bad, to be clear, since I'm in full support of the guideline. I'm just saying that even if you removed mild powers, if the factors in my post are followed, nothing would change. The MP guidelines shouldn't be taken as "you must follow this" but rather "this is about what we expect as default, but feel free to go higher or lower as discussed with others." 

16 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Hard magic systems help writers bring immersion and realism to the table.  Ergo, limits, including MP, are good to consider in RP.

Well, on this we can agree to disagree. If Valucre had a hard magic system I probably never would have joined. The difference between Val and writing a book is that a book is made by a singular person and Val is not. What this means is that if a writer of a book creates a hard magic system, it can help bring their writing and the world the readers experiences into a higher level of immersion. Absolutely. But doing so on Val would limit the ability to others to express their own magic system and their own imagination in favor of the one or few who like the status quo. Who are you to tell me that my magic spell should cost a lot of mana? It's my character and my imagination. Each player plays in the world of Valucre, sure, but many create their own lore and "world" within that play. Saying "no you have to follow these strict guidelines" limits the world they can create and I think that would be detrimental to roleplay as an activity and Valucre as a site. 

Like I said in my post above, if a character does break tension, PM the other person respectfully and let them know that you aren't comfortable with the way they're treating the issue. It almost always solved the issue at that point. It's all about the three factors of proper RP consideration factors which I addressed earlier in this post.

22 hours ago, Ataraxy said:

participating players, theme of the thread, and board/ area

I think the perfect example of this is the Justice League movie. The JL had so much trouble until Superman came along and basically one shot the villain without breaking a sweat. Ruined the whole movie. No disagreement there. It was basically a unanimous opinion throughout the world. So let's say that happened in Valucre. What should you do?

Well first, even before the movie, you have to wonder whether it would make sense to have Batman and Superman facing the same level of villains. If not, you talk to the player of Superman to determine if there are any plausible situations that would lower Superman's ability. Maybe bring back the krypotnite weapons or CGI his mustache off. Then if Supeman still OPs the fight, you send a PM and say something like, I don't think the villain would be one shot like that, especially since we agreed that Superman's power would be lowered because of X plausible reason. Then the Superman player is likely to edit. 

And look at that, the movie doesn't suck anymore and the characters actually work together to find a solution that isn't super stupid and ignores the fact that Superman isn't supposed to be that much stronger than Wonderwoman and so much faster than Flash. 

Collaboration solves all of these little issues, so long as you aren't trying to do anything competitive. If it's a competitive quest, where two characters are racing to the finish line and it's not predetermined nor is it RNG, then yeah okay. Rules need to be a bit stricter and character selection should be impacted. 

16 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:
  • It isn't fair to judge a player by the level of detail in a character sheet.

100% agreee

16 hours ago, The Alexandrian said:

Most importantly, it is, in my opinion, necessary for characters to ordinarily abide by Mild Powers. 

Again though, Mild Powers is actually an extraordinarily large spectrum so saying follow MP isn't saying much. You can follow MP to the letter and still be OP in certain threads. It's a guideline that sets a default and lets people know that certain things are agreed upon by the community to generally be disallowed or the admins don't want to deal with it. But MP is a very, very loose magic system and all it's saying is don't be a dick. I've broken MP so many times with so many characters in various situations and very, very rarely am I "Op" in the thread bc I followed the factors of RP consideration. 

Tl;Dr I agree with you strongly and on some stuff, think you kind of missed my point on other stuff, and totally disagree with you on one lol

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